Social class of Jack the Ripper

[Ben]

Hi Pack,

A potential sighting of the murderer was of pivotal importance to the inquest, since it impacted directly on the cause of death; inasmuch as that "cause" might have been the very same man observed in her company. Why else do you suppose other Millers Court witnesses made reference to men they had seen (and about whom they were quizzed by the coroner and jury)? Unless you mean that Wednesday 7th was too far in advance of her death to be of any importance to the investigation, but in that case why cite this "description" in particular as evidence for the killer's likely social status, as opposed to one of the more credible and reliable ones, such as Lawende's, which occurred ten minutes before the discovery of the victim's body?

By saying in millers court i'm quoting the A to Z.In most cases i've enough faith in those guys to not trawl through every single newspaper to find if any other than the western mail carried it.

I have plenty of faith in them too, but that does not mean mistakes aren't made occasionally - in this case in the form of a possible conflation of two witness sightings. Is a specific source cited? Not one of the newspapers alluding to this "white-cuffed" individual - and there were very few - placed him in the court itself.

Jon argues that "afternoon and evening were interchangeable", but the actual words attributed to Bowyer in that solitary article were "Wednesday night".

With regard to the original question, I would be very surprised if the ripper enjoyed a higher social status than that of a menially employed blue-collar worker who frequented lodging houses. Since this encompasses the vast majority of men in the district, the list of potential suspects looms rather large still.

All the best,
Ben

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

No, I wrote about Queen Mary and published a picture of Queen Mary of Scots. Someone else wrote about the other queen. Please letīs not get the Marys mixed up here.

The point isnīt what we think but what the killer might have thought.

He used a reference to Tennyson, Tennyson wrote the drama Queen Mary, Elizabeth and the Lord Mayor appear in this drama. Whether we mean Queen Mary of Scots or "Bloody Mary", or the cousin Elizabeth or the half sister, or the Lord Mayor of the 16th Century or the one of 1888 is not relevant. They are interchangeable in his use of them as clues. And this is relevant.

If he did write this letter he wanted to use their names to taunt the police.

The killer can only have been interested in killing, mutilating and taunting the police. He cannot have been interested in the history of royalty.

He wanted to give the police information they could use to find him but he thought that he was superior and he wanted them to understand this.

Regards Pierre

Understood Pierre. But I meant he was using the historic connections as some kind of reference point to his actions.

Jeff

[Wickerman]

Jon argues that "afternoon and evening were interchangeable", but the actual words attributed to Bowyer in that solitary article were "Wednesday night".

Hello Ben, hope you are well.

There are a few points to bear in mind. The Western Mail report was in the third person, "night" was the word used by the reporter, we do not know if Bowyer used this word.

Also, "Night" begins at sunset, and sunset in Nov. 1888 began about 4:30 pm.

Afternoon, as we have seen is applicable even as late as 9:30 pm, possibly later.
So it appears we have a window of darkness at the very least 5 hours long, or longer, where Bowyer could have met this 28 year old with "peculiar eyes" speaking to Kelly.

Another point, if you recall I referenced the claims of John Kelly.
Kelly: - I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate-street on Saturday afternoon. An old woman who works in the lane told me she saw her in the hands of the police.

PC Robinson, who arrested Eddowes said he arrested her at "8:30 pm on the "night" of Saturday Sept. 29th.
(Note: Sunset began at 5:40 pm in Oct.)

Also, we have a press account which placed her arrest at "night".

It appears that on Saturday night a woman - who gave the name of Mary Anne Kelly, and her address as No. 6, Fashion-street, Spitalfields - was taken, intoxicated, to the Bishopsgate-street police-station.
Times, Oct. 3rd, 1888.

So you can see 8:30 pm is well within the time window equally attributable to Afternoon, Evening & Night.

[paul g]

Intended victim

Hi PIerre and David hope non of you mind me popping a question or observation in her as I am a tad confused.

Pierre states a letter sent days before had hidden clues within the letter that would identify the address, the date and the names of the not one but two victims.
So the police decipher the hidden clues prior to the said date , what then ?.

He had a reason for killing the unfortunate people he killed stated pierre previously. The locations were pre selected states pierre.
Im so confused !!!!

[RockySullivan]

At the Chapman Inquest Donovan got into an argument with coroner over whether or not 2:30 pm was half past two in the morning ha ha. This got me thinking about the Ripper's schedule. Was the Ripper a night owl? Was his schedule such that he was used to being up all night or did he stay up late to commit the murders?

[Ginger]

The killer can only have been interested in killing, mutilating and taunting the police. He cannot have been interested in the history of royalty.

I don't really see why the killer couldn't have been interested in history, or other topics apart from murder. I'd go so far as to say that were he the type of monomaniac who thought and spoke only of murder and humiliating the police, he'd have proven fairly easy to catch.

[Ginger]

However, the nursery rhyme, "Mary, Mary, quite contrary...." is based on [Mary, Queen of Scots], but I have hardly heard anyone refer to her as "Contrary Mary".

Well... I hadn't a clue! One does find such odd little jewels of knowledge lying about the board.

[Shaggyrand]

On the "Queen Mary and Lord Mayor" thread you mentioned "Bloody Mary", but correctly linked that nickname to Mary I of England herself. Her cousin, the Queen of Scotland and (briefly) France is Mary, Queen of Scots, but her nickname is not a popularly known one today - in fact I have never seen one mentioned. However, the nursery rhyme, "Mary, Mary, quite contrary...." is based on her, but I have hardly heard anyone refer to her as "Contrary Mary". That is the direction you might be going in, as you are still linking the picture of Mary of Scotland to the way Mary Kelly is pointing in the photograph.

On the other hand, Mary I of England had other cousins. Her cousin Philip or Felipe II of Spain was her husband as well. So was her chief advisor, Reginald, Cardinal de la Pole (is the nickname "Phil" or "Reg"??). And the Lord Mayor in the Tennyson verse play is not the same Lord Mayor as either of the two men who held the post in 1888. A matter of three hundred and thirty odd years difference there.

Jeff

Actually the rhyme might be about Mary I. To me anyway, that theory of its meaning and references fits better.

[Rosella]

Hi PIerre and David hope non of you mind me popping a question or observation in her as I am a tad confused.

Pierre states a letter sent days before had hidden clues within the letter that would identify the address, the date and the names of the not one but two victims.
So the police decipher the hidden clues prior to the said date , what then ?.

He had a reason for killing the unfortunate people he killed stated pierre previously. The locations were pre selected states pierre.
Im so confused !!!!

You're not the only one, Paul!

[Pierre]

To Paul & everybody

Hi PIerre and David hope non of you mind me popping a question or observation in her as I am a tad confused.

Pierre states a letter sent days before had hidden clues within the letter that would identify the address, the date and the names of the not one but two victims.
So the police decipher the hidden clues prior to the said date , what then ?.

He had a reason for killing the unfortunate people he killed stated pierre previously. The locations were pre selected states pierre.
Im so confused !!!!

Hi Paul,

yes, according to my data sources there are reasons to hypothesize that the killer planned the murder on Mary Kelly and Elizabeth Prater in room 13 and 20 at MillersīCourt on the 9th of November and that the purpose what not only to humiliate the police but to spoil Lord Mayorīs Day.

I think that there are some important implications of this hypothesis:

1. He had murdered two victims on one night prior to the murder on Lord Mayorīs Day so killing more than one victim on one night is a part of his MO.

2. The murder on the night before Lord Mayorīs Day should , symbolically, have been the biggest event for him in his killing spree since it was aimed at the Lord Mayor. The Lord Mayor had called him "mad", "a mad dog" and "a case for Mr. Pasteur" in the newspapers.

3. Part of his plan was to outsmart the police with metaphorical communication. He wanted to show them that he was more intelligent.

4. The plan of the killer was destroyed when he couldnīt get into Praterīs room. This must have made him very angry. The anger seem to have been taken out on Maryīs dead body and on some items he set fire on.

I have more in my data sources that indicates that this scenario should hypothetically be the right one. And I have sources for the person I think is the killer, which indicates that there are connections between the descriptions above and events in his own llfe.

I am truly sorry that I cannot reveal them to you yet. It is extremely hard for me to keep quiet and I would love to discuss my whole theory with you. But there are reasons for not doing so, and that is the truth.

I am also very sorry to bother you with my small bits of information - but I believe the description above can be the right one and therefore I think it is a good thing to let people know about it.

Regards Pierre

[curious4]

Homage to P

We find him here, we find him there,
Pierre's sticky threads are everywhere.
Culled from Casebook, or a letter from Hell?
One thing's certain
Pierre won't tell.

C4

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

All well here thanks, and many thanks for those snippets.

I would be very surprised to hear anyone refer to 4.30pm as "night", regardless of how early the sun sets. Conversely, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if John Kelly made his comment about Eddowes being locked up in the "afternoon" out of genuine ignorance as to the actual time it occurred. He may have assumed the lock-up occurred earlier, at a time more consistent with the traditionally accepted definition of the term "afternoon".

I'm far more concerned by Bowyer's complete non-reference to this white-cuffed individual at the inquest (well, that and the inherent naffness of his "spooky" attributes, such as "very peculiar eyes"). If he had last seen Kelly in the company of a man, it is unthinkable that he would not have volunteered this information.

Hope all's well with you!

All the best,
Ben

[David Orsam]

yes, according to my data sources there are reasons to hypothesize that the killer planned the murder on Mary Kelly and Elizabeth Prater in room 13 and 20 at MillersīCourt on the 9th of November and that the purpose what not only to humiliate the police but to spoil Lord Mayorīs Day.

He couldn't have been very happy that he failed to spoil Lord Mayor's Day, what with the parade having commenced long before the police even entered the room.

[David Orsam]

The plan of the killer was destroyed when he couldnīt get into Praterīs room. This must have made him very angry. The anger seem to have been taken out on Maryīs dead body and on some items he set fire on.

Do you regard it as odd that Elizabeth Prater didn't mention hearing someone trying to get into her room at night?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

All well here thanks, and many thanks for those snippets.

Hi Ben.
I do have more, but I think the point was made.

I would be very surprised to hear anyone refer to 4.30pm as "night", regardless of how early the sun sets.

True, we would expect "night" to be used for a later time.
It is sufficient to demonstrate that there was significant overlap between the terms; Afternoon, Evening, & Night, which is unconventional to us these days.

Conversely, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if John Kelly made his comment about Eddowes being locked up in the "afternoon" out of genuine ignorance as to the actual time it occurred. He may have assumed the lock-up occurred earlier, at a time more consistent with the traditionally accepted definition of the term "afternoon".

Perhaps, but it isn't necessary to seek an alternate explanation when all we have to do is search the contemporary newspapers to see that "afternoon" was indeed used to describe a time of day that would be "evening" to us, or even "night".
What is traditional to us, today, has not always been the accepted tradition.

I'm far more concerned by Bowyer's complete non-reference to this white-cuffed individual at the inquest (well, that and the inherent naffness of his "spooky" attributes, such as "very peculiar eyes"). If he had last seen Kelly in the company of a man, it is unthinkable that he would not have volunteered this information.

Ah, but Courts do not function that way. The witness is not there to give a running commentary of events that night. You've heard the expression, "only speak when you are spoken to"?, that applies to the witness. You answer specific questions and then stand down.
Besides, the question, "When did you last see the deceased?", was put to him by a Juror, not the Coroner. Maybe Bowyer felt no inclination to elaborate to a Juror?
Regardless, he was not asked if Kelly was with anyone, and, these events did not happen on the night of the murder anyway.
I am very sure most of those witnesses could have told a great deal more had they been allowed to.

Hope all's well with you!

Spiffing Ben, simply spiffing