Originally posted by Mayerling
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Hi Pierre,
If getting angry at you gives you a feeling of support for your approach 1) I'm not getting angry at you at all; 2) the way you handle your approach is so unique to this Board (my opinion) it has thrown many people for a loop!
I haven't really written frequently on the various threads that you started or have written deeply in them, because I have very little to comment. Playing guess the Ripper is meaningless unless (as you have pointed out) you can produce a viable chain of proof regarding a person you pinpoint as Jack that can't be smashed or questioned. Almost all can be. And my own opinion is that after 127 years it is increasingly less likely that we will find the answers. If you are more successful than I feel anyone would be, congratulations. I really hope, even if you are not able to find that last piece of info you need you will relent and tell us what your thoughts were.
As for "If" history (as opposed to "Iffy" history, a term invented by FDR to dismiss the fictionalization of events by changing results: i.e. the Titanic does not sink, or Booth does not kill Lincoln, or Hannibal does march on Rome following his smashing victory at Cannae) - I am a history and political science major (for whatever good they have done me) and I have been thinking of some person in history whose personality has been probed, labelled, and generally accepted by a majority in that final label. Not everyone might agree to the label. Most people think Abraham Lincoln was our greatest American, not just our greatest President, but there are real critics to this day who question this - civil libertarians about his stand on habeas corpus (he made old Chief Justice Roger Taney look better for fighting him on this matter, after Taney's blunder in the Dred Scot Decision), African-Americans who feel Lincoln had to be pushed into full acceptance of their demands for freedom and equality by the likes of Frederick Douglas (there is some truth to this, but I think Lincoln figured out the reality for himself), and white supremacists who blame him for his championing the African-Americans and total war (a la Grant and Sherman and Sheridan) on the South. It appears that the anti-Lincolns are split among themselves and also a minority.
But recently I have been watching something along the lines of what you have been hinting at in modern day America. Although hardly in the Gandhi, FDR, Lincoln, Hitler level of historical importance, the recent decided fall in popularity and public support of the African-American comedian and actor and producer Bill Cosby is on line of what I think you are getting at. In the 1990s, and as late as 2002 or so Cosby name and reputation were high. He was not only one of the first African-Americans to break stereotypes regarding televisions shows (I Spy, The Cosby Show), but he was outspoken in attacking the Hollywood and cultural stereotypes - doing a landmark television documentary in the late 1960s showing how false and bad these stereotypes were regarding Blacks. It probably helped make television and movie studios more careful on how to handle these matters (and not only for African-Americans, but for Woman, Latinos, Asians as well). Sometimes it took longer, and sometimes the effects remained uneven, but the impetus and movement for reforming was there - and Cosby was in the vanguard.
After 2002 two things happened. He had vast amounts of public sympathy because his only son was murdered by thugs in Los Angeles in the 1990s. But in the early part of the 2000s he was forced to confront the arguments of a young woman that she was his illegitimate daughter. This case he won (the girl went to prison for extortion I believe) but it tarnished his image a bit. He was also crusading now about ending certain stereotyping of women and policemen in the African-American sub-culture in it's language and in it's new "Rap" Music Lyrics. In particular the use of the notorious "N" word by young African-American males. This actually brought down some criticism of Cosby in the African-American community, where it was felt he was harming the very people whom the earlier Cosby had been helping.
Then came the last year and some thirty women claiming he sexually molested or attacked them since the 1970s. Now (withholding one's own opinions on these matters) Cosby's guilt or innocence on these charges will eventually be proved in law courts. However, they are reminding us of that earlier matter of the young woman who claimed she was his illegitimate daughter. Maybe there was some truth after all to her statements. Also the damage is crippling and already begun. Courses in various college that Cosby (who has a degree in education) founded have been renamed to drop his name from them. Doctorates have been taken back from him. One school has decided to reject a previously accepted scholarship program he founded because he founded it and it's named for him. Let's face it, whatever happens in those law courts, Bill Cosby's reputation will forever be smeared and reduced from what it was.
I think that is the kind of effect you are talking about - only brought to some more historically important figure, rather than one who was culturally significant.
Am I correct?
Jeff
If getting angry at you gives you a feeling of support for your approach 1) I'm not getting angry at you at all; 2) the way you handle your approach is so unique to this Board (my opinion) it has thrown many people for a loop!
I haven't really written frequently on the various threads that you started or have written deeply in them, because I have very little to comment. Playing guess the Ripper is meaningless unless (as you have pointed out) you can produce a viable chain of proof regarding a person you pinpoint as Jack that can't be smashed or questioned. Almost all can be. And my own opinion is that after 127 years it is increasingly less likely that we will find the answers. If you are more successful than I feel anyone would be, congratulations. I really hope, even if you are not able to find that last piece of info you need you will relent and tell us what your thoughts were.
As for "If" history (as opposed to "Iffy" history, a term invented by FDR to dismiss the fictionalization of events by changing results: i.e. the Titanic does not sink, or Booth does not kill Lincoln, or Hannibal does march on Rome following his smashing victory at Cannae) - I am a history and political science major (for whatever good they have done me) and I have been thinking of some person in history whose personality has been probed, labelled, and generally accepted by a majority in that final label. Not everyone might agree to the label. Most people think Abraham Lincoln was our greatest American, not just our greatest President, but there are real critics to this day who question this - civil libertarians about his stand on habeas corpus (he made old Chief Justice Roger Taney look better for fighting him on this matter, after Taney's blunder in the Dred Scot Decision), African-Americans who feel Lincoln had to be pushed into full acceptance of their demands for freedom and equality by the likes of Frederick Douglas (there is some truth to this, but I think Lincoln figured out the reality for himself), and white supremacists who blame him for his championing the African-Americans and total war (a la Grant and Sherman and Sheridan) on the South. It appears that the anti-Lincolns are split among themselves and also a minority.
But recently I have been watching something along the lines of what you have been hinting at in modern day America. Although hardly in the Gandhi, FDR, Lincoln, Hitler level of historical importance, the recent decided fall in popularity and public support of the African-American comedian and actor and producer Bill Cosby is on line of what I think you are getting at. In the 1990s, and as late as 2002 or so Cosby name and reputation were high. He was not only one of the first African-Americans to break stereotypes regarding televisions shows (I Spy, The Cosby Show), but he was outspoken in attacking the Hollywood and cultural stereotypes - doing a landmark television documentary in the late 1960s showing how false and bad these stereotypes were regarding Blacks. It probably helped make television and movie studios more careful on how to handle these matters (and not only for African-Americans, but for Woman, Latinos, Asians as well). Sometimes it took longer, and sometimes the effects remained uneven, but the impetus and movement for reforming was there - and Cosby was in the vanguard.
After 2002 two things happened. He had vast amounts of public sympathy because his only son was murdered by thugs in Los Angeles in the 1990s. But in the early part of the 2000s he was forced to confront the arguments of a young woman that she was his illegitimate daughter. This case he won (the girl went to prison for extortion I believe) but it tarnished his image a bit. He was also crusading now about ending certain stereotyping of women and policemen in the African-American sub-culture in it's language and in it's new "Rap" Music Lyrics. In particular the use of the notorious "N" word by young African-American males. This actually brought down some criticism of Cosby in the African-American community, where it was felt he was harming the very people whom the earlier Cosby had been helping.
Then came the last year and some thirty women claiming he sexually molested or attacked them since the 1970s. Now (withholding one's own opinions on these matters) Cosby's guilt or innocence on these charges will eventually be proved in law courts. However, they are reminding us of that earlier matter of the young woman who claimed she was his illegitimate daughter. Maybe there was some truth after all to her statements. Also the damage is crippling and already begun. Courses in various college that Cosby (who has a degree in education) founded have been renamed to drop his name from them. Doctorates have been taken back from him. One school has decided to reject a previously accepted scholarship program he founded because he founded it and it's named for him. Let's face it, whatever happens in those law courts, Bill Cosby's reputation will forever be smeared and reduced from what it was.
I think that is the kind of effect you are talking about - only brought to some more historically important figure, rather than one who was culturally significant.
Am I correct?
Jeff
Well, thanks for not getting angry at me then!
Really interesting to read about Cosby and it makes me realize the case of Cosby is a terrible but rather different type of case with other implications.
Regards Pierre
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