Suicides in 1888 Whitechapel

[barnflatwyngarde]

Folks,
I have just posted to a thread asking:

"What incontrovertible piece of evidence would it take for everyone to say... Ah well,reckon that's it "

I posted about the possibility of finding a late 1888 suicide of a blotchy faced Whitechapel resident, not very original or even very witty, but it got me thinking, has anyone ever carried out a trawl of late 1888/early 1889 suicides of Whitechapel residents?

A list of suicides would obviously be of little value in itself, but it could be an interesting avenue to explore.

[Patrick S]

Folks,
I have just posted to a thread asking:

"What incontrovertible piece of evidence would it take for everyone to say... Ah well,reckon that's it "

I posted about the possibility of finding a late 1888 suicide of a blotchy faced Whitechapel resident, not very original or even very witty, but it got me thinking, has anyone ever carried out a trawl of late 1888/early 1889 suicides of Whitechapel residents?

A list of suicides would obviously be of little value in itself, but it could be an interesting avenue to explore.

It could be. I enjoyed reading the article on this site about Edward Buchan's suicide. He cut his throat on the day of Mary Kelly's funeral. Its been awhile, if memory serves he was a shoemaker. One of the physicians described the knife used in one of the killings as, perhaps, one used by a shoemaker or cobbler. So, that's intriguing.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Buchan was the Ripper. That is to say, we don't nearly enough to even have the discussion, at this point. For me it's simply more of the interesting fabric surrounding the Autumn of 1888.

That said, I've never believed very strongly serial killers commit suicide. I know there are likely examples of this happening. But, it's not typical. It's not as if they wake up one day and realize how awful they've been. I also don't think - as clearly some of the police officials of the time did - that the Ripper's mind gave way after Miller's Court and he killed himself. I'm thinking he didn't decide that he didn't like they way Kelly looked on the inside.....and decided to slash his own throat rather than do it again.

[Abby Normal]

It could be. I enjoyed reading the article on this site about Edward Buchan's suicide. He cut his throat on the day of Mary Kelly's funeral. Its been awhile, if memory serves he was a shoemaker. One of the physicians described the knife used in one of the killings as, perhaps, one used by a shoemaker or cobbler. So, that's intriguing.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Buchan was the Ripper. That is to say, we don't nearly enough to even have the discussion, at this point. For me it's simply more of the interesting fabric surrounding the Autumn of 1888.

That said, I've never believed very strongly serial killers commit suicide. I know there are likely examples of this happening. But, it's not typical. It's not as if they wake up one day and realize how awful they've been. I also don't think - as clearly some of the police officials of the time did - that the Ripper's mind gave way after Miller's Court and he killed himself. I'm thinking he didn't decide that he didn't like they way Kelly looked on the inside.....and decided to slash his own throat rather than do it again.

I agree.
I would be interested in research of men arrested or killed in violence(preferably with a knife involved) in the second half of 1889.

[Harry D]

It could be. I enjoyed reading the article on this site about Edward Buchan's suicide. He cut his throat on the day of Mary Kelly's funeral. Its been awhile, if memory serves he was a shoemaker. One of the physicians described the knife used in one of the killings as, perhaps, one used by a shoemaker or cobbler. So, that's intriguing.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Buchan was the Ripper. That is to say, we don't nearly enough to even have the discussion, at this point. For me it's simply more of the interesting fabric surrounding the Autumn of 1888.

That said, I've never believed very strongly serial killers commit suicide. I know there are likely examples of this happening. But, it's not typical. It's not as if they wake up one day and realize how awful they've been. I also don't think - as clearly some of the police officials of the time did - that the Ripper's mind gave way after Miller's Court and he killed himself. I'm thinking he didn't decide that he didn't like they way Kelly looked on the inside.....and decided to slash his own throat rather than do it again.

If I recall, Mary Kelly's funeral happened to coincide with Buchan's birthday.

[Patrick S]

If I recall, Mary Kelly's funeral happened to coincide with Buchan's birthday.

correct. must of had the birthday blues.

[Mayerling]

Folks,
I have just posted to a thread asking:

"What incontrovertible piece of evidence would it take for everyone to say... Ah well,reckon that's it "

I posted about the possibility of finding a late 1888 suicide of a blotchy faced Whitechapel resident, not very original or even very witty, but it got me thinking, has anyone ever carried out a trawl of late 1888/early 1889 suicides of Whitechapel residents?

A list of suicides would obviously be of little value in itself, but it could be an interesting avenue to explore.

I once did consider something similar (but not quite as geographically centered) as what you suggested. In wake of the fact that Montie Druitt apparently drowned himself in December 1888, and was one of Macnaughten's three suspects, I considered checking all suicides of the period from November 1888 to February 1891 (Frances Coles death) to see if there were many notable drownings. The idea was kicked about by me - I did notice that in Boase's Modern English Biography he includes in his indices at the backs of each of the six volumes lists of suicides, so one could start there - and I did for awhile. The most intriguing series had nothing to do with only suicides. Between 1887 and 1892 three members of a distinguished family named Carpenter met sticky ends, one by an accidental fire, one by a carriage accident, and the third by shooting himself. I started looking deeper into this (the old Dictionary of National Biography had a large essay on one of them mentioning the others), but I dropped it for other matters. If one wants to start researching a list of suicides one could start there and then go to the indices of the Times of London from 1888 to 1891 or further, just to be more certain and thorough. Moreover you could prune the results of the searches by keeping the listing to the East End and London areas.

Jeff

[jerryd]

Suicide of PC Richard Browne in Hyde Park, 16, November 1888.

http://blog.casebook.org/chrisgeorge/2011/09/22/the-mysterious-life-and-death-of-pc-richard-brown/

[Rosella]

The trouble is that many people in London in any one year just wandered off for various reasons. Some of them may have committed suicide out of London or in another part of the capital, including friend Jack after 1888.

In '1888: The London Murders in the Year of the Ripper' the author Peter Stubley quotes the Times 'In 1887 there were 18,004 missing persons, of whom 9,2003 were restored to their friends and eighty five were suicides.' Stubley observes 'That left a total of 8,716 people unaccounted for in London.' No doubt the figures were similar for 1888/89.

Probably many of the nearly 9,000 people had left their families and locales voluntarily for innocent reasons and some not so innocent, several may have been murdered and their deaths were passed over as being from natural causes or misadventure and some had probably suicided by plunging into the Thames but their bodies were never identified.

[RockySullivan]

would the ripper have been suicidal? Are serial killers usually? I would think the ripper would be walking on sunshine absolutely happy and totally satisfied..and have a reason to stay alive

[Rosella]

We don't know what state of mind Jack was in, Rocky. That's the trouble isn't it? He could have been suicidal, could have become insane, could have become incapacitated so no more fun, could ha', could ha'! I have read that few known serial killers commit suicide, but who knows. Just as Jack was an extremely unusual killer in his m.o. so he might have been in choosing his end.

[Shaggyrand]

would the ripper have been suicidal? Are serial killers usually? I would think the ripper would be walking on sunshine absolutely happy and totally satisfied..and have a reason to stay alive

Maybe. No. Suicide is rare among serial killers. A few have killed themselves while in custody. A handful have killed themselves before arrest. It's very rare and even then its usually just among a specific type of serial killer but not unheard of.
Suicidal tendencies aren't unusual when they are adolescents or in their pre-crime stages. Once they actually start killing, suicide is highly unlikely.

[Patrick S]

Maybe. No. Suicide is rare among serial killers. A few have killed themselves while in custody. A handful have killed themselves before arrest. It's very rare and even then its usually just among a specific type of serial killer but not unheard of.
Suicidal tendencies aren't unusual when they are adolescents or in their pre-crime stages. Once they actually start killing, suicide is highly unlikely.

A serial killer will typically:

1. Ask strangers to view people they've just killed
2. Walk with said stranger to find a policeman to tell them about the dead person
3. Voluntarily show up in court to tell their story about asking the stranger to see the person he'd just killed and going to find a policeman to tell about the dead person
4. Maintain gainful, steady employment throughout their lives
5. Marry and stay married throught their lives
6. Have a dozen kids
7. Open a business later in life
8. Die in their bed at a ripe age
9. Leave a nice inheritence to their family (Psychopaths are often very worried about their loved one's financial security, you see)

This is all very elementary stuff. I can't believe I have to remind you of it.

[Shaggyrand]

It was a long day & I was tired. Brain farted in a way that I am just not proud of. Usually have numbers 1, 6 & 8 down cold too. The SHAME!!!!

[gnote]

While suicide is possible i believe we would be more likely finding the Ripper's name among those who were incarcerated for a lengthy period of time.

If we are to assume he was, i can't help but wonder if Jack couldn't keep it to himself and confess to a fellow inmate.

[curious4]

Just wondering. How many suicides were pulled out of the river - no, handed over to the police with their pockets full of money and valuables? Apart from Druitt, that is.

Best wishes
C4