Francis Spurzheim Craig

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby
I must have written that a while back when I was initially intrigued by this whole story...the story (told by the divorce papers)of one woman's descent into East End prostitution from a respectable Welsh family, via a West End brothel and ultimately disappearing into thin air about the same time MJK appeared in the Ratcliffe Highway/Pennington St area. It's the right pattern, the right feel, I can't describe it more than that.

..Much research later with some preview chapters of the book to go on...I'm less convinced, I'd say.
It's difficult to pinpoint anything specific at this time as, to be fair, I haven't read the whole book yet and the author's take on things like the organ removal and mutilations will be an invaluable contribution, given his professional experience, I feel.
But I have reservations about certain things in Wynne H W Davies theory, let's say. Most of them related to whether or not some of the main characters in the story really were brothel keepers and what their actual address was in 1885-89.
I'm away on holiday the day the book is released on Kindle here in the UK but I hope to be able to download it a few days later and either satisfy my niggles entirely (ie they have been fully addressed in the book) or then I will post questions ...like everyone else I guess!
Debs

As usual Debra-thanks for the response.

While the story does seem to jibe, im starting to think that if Mary Kelly had been recently married to a reporter that it would have come out in her back story, given how her past relationships ( Flemming, Morganstone etc) came to light--or perhaps she wanted to keep it secret for some reason.

When was Davies divorce?

[dixon9]

i am miles behind all you on here(but love the subject of JTR),one question after watching todays bit on sky news,how would the author know that MJK ex had hired private detectives to try and find her?

thanks for any help

[Bridewell]

i am miles behind all you on here(but love the subject of JTR),one question after watching todays bit on sky news,how would the author know that MJK ex had hired private detectives to try and find her?

thanks for any help

I guess she would know if she met one of them and he identified himself.

[Penhalion]

How common were private detectives in the mid 1880's? I understood that one of the unique things about Sherlock Holmes as a character was that he was not a police detective- a consulting/private detective. I believe that Pinkerton's only operated in America at the time.

Although you could probably hire somebody to follow someone or go out and ask questions, I'd hesitate to call them private detectives.

I would also be interested in the documentation on the PI's searching for MJK/EDW- is it found in his papers? Does it indicate he found her?

[Hatchett]

Hi All,

I think ( and hope) that some of these questions will be explained in the book.

Best wishes.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

Charles Field set up what I believe is the first Enquiry Office in the UK in 1832. So the industry of the Private Dectective would have been well mature by 1888.

Best wishes.

[jmenges]

Hi All,

I think ( and hope) that some of these questions will be explained in the book.

Best wishes.

And if some of these questions are not explained in the book, I will be asking the author this Sunday when he sits down with myself, Paul Begg and Robert McLaughlin for a panel discussion for Rippercast. So I'm keeping an eye on these threads.

JM

[Robert]

As a very unscientific experiment I searched the 1891 census for 'private detective' and it returned 31 results. I clicked on about a third of them to make sure that it was the correct occupation, and it was. Of the ones I clicked, nearly all had 'guild' written in pencil beside 'private detective.' I don't know what that means.

There may have been others under 'private investigator,' 'enquiry agent' etc etc.

[Debra A]

As usual Debra-thanks for the response.

While the story does seem to jibe, im starting to think that if Mary Kelly had been recently married to a reporter that it would have come out in her back story, given how her past relationships ( Flemming, Morganstone etc) came to light--or perhaps she wanted to keep it secret for some reason.

When was Davies divorce?

Thanks , Abby.
The divorce proceedings are headed 1886 on Ancestry. The marriage was 1884. The adultery or prostitution began in 1885 according to the divorce petition.

[Hatchett]

Hi JM,

That's fair play, isnt it.

But lets at least give the guy a chance to fully explain himself first.

Best wishes.

[Debra A]

As a very unscientific experiment I searched the 1891 census for 'private detective' and it returned 31 results. I clicked on about a third of them to make sure that it was the correct occupation, and it was. Of the ones I clicked, nearly all had 'guild' written in pencil beside 'private detective.' I don't know what that means.

There may have been others under 'private investigator,' 'enquiry agent' etc etc.

Using Private Inquiry* and Private enquiry" picks up a few also, Robert.
The 'guild' thing is new on me.

[drstrange169]

When it comes to the autumn of 1888, one private detective springs to mind. He and his partner being quite prominent in Berner Street;-)

[miss marple]

It is a very interesting hypothosis, as there do seem to be a number of connections between MK's back story and parts of EWD's life. Her Davies, name, her welsh background, west end life, the knowledge of Scots guards at the Londonderrys, brother Johnto, could all be poured into the mix in the process of reinventing herself, but there is another side of MK, the irish side.

We know MK had lodged with Mrs Buki round about 84 and the McCarthys at Breezers Hill in 85 so she was in the EastEnd before the marriage of EWD but [I am just throwing an idea into the mix] supposing EWD did come to Whitechapel and met a prostitute called Mary Kelly and appropriated some of her story and her name? I am refering to our friend the prostitute, Mary Kelly inmate of the Whitechapel infirmary in 1881 resident of castle ally. Just suppose Flemming and Morganstone was her history. Buki and the M'Cathys did not know the later MK, just the earlier one. The body was too multilated to identify properly, no photos of MK, the people who knew her earlier would just know the name.
For such a myth maker as EWD she would have to have acquired the irish story from some where.

I am not convinced that Craig did four murders before killing his wife, It does not feel right. If he just killed MK to obliterate her that makes more sense. He seems too old at 50 but I am intrigued enough to want to read the book. EWD seems an interesting charactor in her own right.

Miss Marple

[Debra A]

And if some of these questions are not explained in the book, I will be asking the author this Sunday when he sits down with myself, Paul Begg and Robert McLaughlin for a panel discussion for Rippercast. So I'm keeping an eye on these threads.

JM

We still won't have read the book by then JM! But I'd like to know if there's any proof the Maundrell/McLeod's were living at 28 Collingham Place before 1890? I suspect they were at Edwardes Square, Kensington until 1890, where a Miss Maundrell and Miss Leigh Hunt were advertising a French speaking Kindergarten and Preparatory school in 1885 ( at the site of a previously established school run by a Miss Tattershall, so all very innocent, to me) and Charles Maundrell had a studio 1887-1890. Part of Wynne's case is, I believe, that there are no adverts for a school at 28 Collingham Place, but there wouldn't be if the school was a Edwardes Square?
Directories and electoral registers show electricical design engineer and family man ( he had a baby boy in 88) James Edward Henry Gordon was at 28 Collingham Place from 1883 to 1890 but I couldn't see anyone else listed there. And would the Gordons want to stay there for so long if it was a brothel?!

[RockySullivan]

I thought granger was covered in tattoos and earrings doesn't sound like blotchy ?

Did anyone else notice how many similar usernames we have here? Craig H, Jonathan G, John G, Jerry D, Harry D, Phil h, michael H, the good michael, the bad michael, the ugly michael etc...is it a gag?

Dammit this was meant for the grainger thread