Timothy Donovan charged with violent theft 1885 was NOT JTR or the witness

[truebluedub]

Hi,
I was on the Old Bailey transcripts again and found this one which has been referred to by AP Wolf and others. Reports of the trial have been used as the basis of iding the 1903 Timothy Donovan:
"JAMES DONOVAN, TIMOTHY DONOVAN, JAMES CHANDLER, Violent Theft > robbery, 14th September 1885.
Reference Number: t18850914-877
Offence: Violent Theft > robbery
Verdict: Guilty > other
Punishment: Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude
877. JAMES DONOVAN (35), TIMOTHY DONOVAN (21), and JAMES CHANDLER (33), Robbery with violence on Thomas Mewes and stealing from his person 14.l
....
GUILTY . JAMES DONOVAN and CHANDLER then PLEADED GUILTY to previous convictions: James Donovan at Clerkenwell in June, 1880, and Chandler at Reading in February, 1880. JAMES DONOVAN** and CHANDLER**— Ten Years' Penal Servitude each. TIMOTHY DONOVAN*— Five Years' Penal Servitude."

If TD was in jail from 1885 to 1890 then he was not JTR or the Crossingham TD. It also makes it unlikely that he was the 1903 TD as If the TD found in the 1881 census was the same one who married Mary prior to 1891, the only time he could have done this was in the second quarter of 1889 (assuming the marriage was in the same area he had always lived).

Kind Regards,
Chris Lowe

[Cap'n Jack]

I don't believe the length of sentence served can be determined by the length of sentence handed down by the court.
Many prisoners obtained early release through a 'ticket' system which required them to report to the local police station on a regular basis; and this applied to some very serious crimes.
Many prisoners only served half their sentence, determined by their 'good behaviour' whilst in the prison system.
Le Grand for instance was out and about a long time before his sentence was due to expire.

[truebluedub]

Hi,
I'll agree with you on the point that we can't tell for certain how long a person was banged up. However we can infer to a certain extent, take for example the another TD included on the Old Bailey archives:

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-345-18780311&div=t18780311-345#highlight

He was sent down for 7 years and be on the business end of a whipping. This is likely to be the same Timothy Donovan in Parkhurst. If this is correct then the other TD's who are found in the 1881 (one of whom is the TD I started with) cannot be the same as this criminal. Note both of these sets of TD's are old enough to be the man who killed his wife in 1903.
Now given the dates neither is likely to be the TD who got married in 1889 is the wife murderer.
There is another TD in Portland prison, from Whitechapel in 1891 according to the census, who is the right age. It is possible that this is the one who has a brother named James. (Unlikely given the sentence but just possible he had another jail sentence afterwards). There are several other TD's included in the 1891 census who might be the TD sentenced with a brother, James.

Kind regards
Chris Lowe

[Cap'n Jack]

Indeed, Chris.
My speculation has always been that the Timothy Donovan at the OB in 1878 for violent assault, aged 16, is the same Timothy Donovan who went down for manslaughter in 1903.
In the 1903 case 21 previous convictions, several for assaults, were proved against him... and you'll note that in the 1878 trial other assaults were proven against him.
The age is right; and given the general area of the violent assaults I think it to be the same man... as the Timothy Donovan of Dorset Street.

[truebluedub]

I think the only area of disagreement between us then is whether the 1885 TD is the same as the 1878 one and if not was Mr 1885 outside at the time of the Ripper crimes.
I see 1878 as the more likely of the two.
By "Now given the dates neither is likely to be the TD who got married in 1889 is the wife murderer." I was referring to the two TD's in the 1881 with a James as a brother, and was typing too fast.


Kind regards
Chris Lowe

[Cap'n Jack]

Chris, I don't think it can be the same TD in 1885 on account of him having no previous convictions:

'GUILTY . JAMES DONOVAN and CHANDLER then PLEADED GUILTY to previous convictions: James Donovan at Clerkenwell in June, 1880, and Chandler at Reading in February, 1880. JAMES DONOVAN** and CHANDLER**— Ten Years' Penal Servitude each. TIMOTHY DONOVAN*— Five Years' Penal Servitude. '

[Pinkerton]

Case follow-up

I just came across this case. One thing I would like to add is that during the trial they give the EXACT address of where Timothy Donovan lived as of August 8, 1885. He lived at 63 Commercial Road, Whitechapel. Thought this might be of interest.

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks, but I have to say sorry. I believe the single '*' by Donovan's name means he has been charged with one offence before.

[Debra A]

Hi all,
It seems that there are considered to be only two candidates for the witness Timothy Donovan and I was just wondering if anyone had ever considered the Timothy Donovan living at 11 Mill Yard, Goodman's Fields, Whitechapel in 1891?
He was 32, a general labourer, and was born in Whitechapel (and would also have been around 28/29 years old in 1888.)

Or have I missed something that discounts him that has been discussed before?

Also, I was reading this thread and JTRforums posts on the possibility that certain offences recorded in the Old Bailey archives can be attributed to Crossingham's TD, whichever TD he was.
The March 1878 offence of assault and robbery on a young girl in Osborne Street Whitechapel was carried out by a Timothy Donovan born 1861 in St. Giles, parents Catherine and Timothy Donovan, who lived at 22 Church Lane, St Giles for a large number of years. As Sam Flynn showed and Chris mentions here, this TD was probably in Parkhurst in 1881, serving a 7 year penal servitude sentence with a one year supervision order. He also had previous. Maybe he could also a candidate for Crossingham's TD? He was orignally from St Giles but it's obvious from the offence that he did spend time in Whitechapel.

Another one mentioned is the 1885 conviction of a Timothy Donovan, along with another man, James Donovan, as others have mentioned, this probably isn't the same person as the one above. The Daily News of Tuesday, August 11, 1885 states "James and Timothy Donovan were yesterday brought before magistrate's at Bow Street Police Court and committed for trial. James Donovan was described by the police as a notorious thief, while it was stated that Timothy had also been in custody but not convicted. " The 1878 conviction (and a previous) would rule them out as being the same person.

As far as identification of the 1885 culprit goes, a snippet that may be of interest is from Reynolds's Newspaper of Sunday, January 18, 1885
saying that "Timothy Donovan aged 21 years was charged with being concerned with another man of the same name, but no relation...."
I know that a ceratin family in St. George in the East was picked out because they had two sons in the family with the names Timothy and James. Perhaps someone else fits now if this press report is correct and there maybe yet another candidate! An address of 65 Commercial Road Whitechapel is given for this Timothy in the 1885 trial transcript, as noted by Pinkerton.

According to information just sent to me by Rob Clack, the district #65Commercial Road was in was classed as Mile End Old Town.

Debs

[Debra A]

I think I have found crossingham's Timothy Donovan

I noticed on the 1891 that there was a Timothy Donovan b c 1888 in Spitalfields. Interstingly, his father's name was also Timothy.As it was the first mention i'd seen of a man named Timothy Donovan, with a connection to the actual district of Spitalfields I decided to order the 1888 birth certificate.



Here are the details:



Registration District of Whitechapel, birth in the sub district of Spitalfields.


Thirteenth December 1887 at 35 Dorset street
Timothy, boy, father Timothy Donovan, Bricklayers labourer, mother Margaret Donovan formerly Dempsey.

Informant Margaret Donovan [her x mark] of 35 Dorset Street Spitalfields.
Registered 18th January 1888.



Here's the details from the 1891 census:
71 Romford Street, Mile End Old Town
Timothy Donovan, head, 26, general labourer, b Essex, [Stratford?]
Margaret Donovan, wife, 26 b London, Whitechapel
Timothy Donovan, son, 3 b Spitalfields
John Donovan, son, 7m b Stepney





I think the address in December/January 1888 suggests it is the Timothy Donovan who was deputy of Crossingham's, even if the occupation doesn't.