Was JTR a local?

[Amanda]

Oops...

Yes.No worries. It was poster Amanda who said they had the same motive. And I've asked her what it was

Hi Abby,
Sorry, meant to reply but got tied up (not literally!!).

I apologise for being vague, but my book (Cream's biography) will be out in a few months, so I don't really want to reveal his motive yet.

As for Jack, I'm merely speculating that he had the same motive as Cream based on the severity of the mutilations caused to the women. Although Cream employed a different method of ending life, I think that the level of hatred toward the victims was the same. Both inflicted suffering or wounds to a degree that there would be no chance of the victim surviving the poisoning, or in Jack's case attack. Both murderers displayed signs of premeditation and in my opinion both murderers had enough charm to ensure that their victims didn't feel threatened by going in to dark alleyways with them.
Just my humble instincts of course...

Amanda

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,
Sorry, meant to reply but got tied up (not literally!!).

I apologise for being vague, but my book (Cream's biography) will be out in a few months, so I don't really want to reveal his motive yet.

As for Jack, I'm merely speculating that he had the same motive as Cream based on the severity of the mutilations caused to the women. Although Cream employed a different method of ending life, I think that the level of hatred toward the victims was the same. Both inflicted suffering or wounds to a degree that there would be no chance of the victim surviving the poisoning, or in Jack's case attack. Both murderers displayed signs of premeditation and in my opinion both murderers had enough charm to ensure that their victims didn't feel threatened by going in to dark alleyways with them.
Just my humble instincts of course...

Amanda

Thanks Amanda
Congrats on your book!

[MayBea]

... now you're making your own definition of what blue collar means. If truckers and sailors are not blue collar you should inform them of their upgrade "status".

I didn't mean they weren't "blue collar". I meant it's not representative.

Truckers are only one part of one segment, the sample is small, and it's hard to become white collar when you're at sea and in the military.

Although I'd rather not use the terms white or blue collar, I do have my own definitions or perceptions of what they mean.

The same goes for the definition of local. It shouldn't be strictly based on a general definition, but based relative to something that can be measured, like the length of residence of other residents. Otherwise it can be misinterpreted. A one year resident or even ten years is not the same as someone who lived there all their lives.

[GregBaron]

Seeking the gutter...

Some aristocrats do go trolling amongst the dregs of society, tis true……but it would seem the exception…

I’m not sure Hugh Grant soliciting a street walker in an LA taxi is the same as a Toff frolicking in East London circa 1888…..cars are nice isolation chambers as Gary Numan once proclaimed...

A high class bloke visiting the ghetto to murder can’t be ruled out a priori but the circumstances seem to argue against it..

Now if a Toff dressed down and put on a fake mustache, cap and accent etc., well then we are dealing with an exceedingly clever Jtr….again the likelihood?

I imagine movies and books have tainted the views of many but it doesn’t take a social historian to realize that Whitechapel wasn’t an attractive place to be, how many would come in that didn’t have to, murderer or not …?

How much of a rarity or a target might a well off bloke have been in the East End ? On this I’ve never received a convincing answer although we do have tales of Tumblety’s, Isaacs’, Druitt's, Millen’s(?) and Astrakhan’s here and there……


Greg

[MayBea]

And Blotchy-Face and Pipeman...

I have my own definition of 'aristocratic' or 'professional white-collar elite' in this case. I interpret 'generally' in a definition as meaning generally. Others don't.

And even if you don't interpret it broadly as I do, you have to interpret the examples based on the era and extrapolate to Victorian times. Then there were less women in clerical, white collar positions than now, and fewer and smaller conglomerates.

So does Sutcliffe driving a truck, or Yates working in a factory, really make a case for Jack's likely profile?

On the other hand, I still think the examples are still useful, but only in relation to other types of killers....I don't think that relationship changes much over time.

[RockySullivan]

Just curious maybe why do you consider pipeman as a possible "outsider" to the east end (not exactly what your saying but please elaborate I'm interested)

Another point: jacks knowledge of hanbury and possible connection the stolen tools when considered, plus torso's ability to gain access to the cellar at whitehall are strong indications of the rippers "class" & "profession". My humble (and not popular) opinion

[MayBea]

I was actually adding to GregBaron's list of toffs when I mentioned Pipeman, incorrectly, I now find, as clay pipes seem to have been common with the working class. Even Barnett had one.

But considering him viz-a-viz local versus outsider, wouldn't throwing an anti-semitic epithet be unusual for a gentile in a Jewish community if he was a local and could perhaps be recognized later by Schwartz? Not to mention if he was Jack the Ripper...?

[RockySullivan]

I was actually adding to GregBaron's list of toffs when I mentioned Pipeman, incorrectly, I now find, as clay pipes seem to have been common with the working class. Even Barnett had one.

But considering him viz-a-viz local versus outsider, wouldn't throwing an anti-semitic epithet be unusual for a gentile in a Jewish community if he was a local and could perhaps be recognized later by Schwartz? Not to mention if he was Jack the Ripper...?

No I highly doubt it would be unusual to hear anti-Semitic remarks in whitechapel in fact I think it was extremely common. However pipeman wasn't the one shouting an anti-Semitic slur it was Broad Shouldered man commonly referred to as BS man who attacked Stride and shouted Lipski. Pipeman was across the street smoking.

[MayBea]

You're right, it was BS man who shouted Lipski. But, if he wasn't a Jew and therefore probably local, it was a big risk to shout that in Jewish neighborhood near a Jewish workers club.

Pipeman just stood there smoking like he wasn't worried. Did he think he was an untouchable?

If truckers...are not blue collar you should inform them of their upgrade "status".

That might not be a bad thing. You da king! You da king o' da woad!

[Damaso Marte]

You must have very well behaved blue collar people in Britain if they never use racial slurs or curse words in the presence of those who might be offended by it...

[RockySullivan]

"..and a black guy from Missouri." Wow.

Didn't know that was a descriptor of income level/occupation. Yikes.

Still cracking up about this a day later

[MacGuffin]

Hi pinkmoon,

Would a local be able to wait six weeks after the double event.

There are certain behaviors that define and are consistent with all serial murderers, one of the primary aspects being that of a "cooling off" period between killings. Some shared actions of modern serial killers can't be compared to killers of JtR's era due to obvious progressive changes in the last hundred and thirty years, but I seriously doubt this would apply to the cooling phase between killings, as this is an essential criteria for the definition of a serial killer.
Keeping this in mind, there is little reason to believe that a local killer would have any more or less difficulty than a traveling killer, with regards to a six week cooling period.

Best regards,
MacGuffin

[Rosella]

You must have very well behaved blue collar people in Britain if they never use racial slurs or curse words in the presence of those who might be offended by it...

Yes, but discretion is the better part of valour, as they say. If a club member had been nearby, heard the 'Lipski' and had informed a few members of the club, then BS man could well have been outnumbered.

[MayBea]

Still cracking up about this a day later

In my defence, I believe I specifically mentioned "Caucasian" when I gave the only example that came to mind. (I did recall a handyman from California who wasn't Caucasian.)

I was trying to avoid getting examples all over the racial, and global, and circumstantial spectrum. Examples are random by definition so need to be more defined while definitions (white/blue collar, local/outsider) are specific and I was looking for some leeway there.

[MayBea]

Some shared actions of modern serial killers can't be compared to killers of JtR's era due to obvious progressive changes in the last hundred and thirty years...

I agree with you, MacGuffin, that the increased cooling-off time isn't evidence for an outsider, as there could be many explanations for it and there is no statistical evidence of a definite pattern of shortening cooling-off periods for SKs.

"In truthfulness, the length of the cooling off period probably depends upon specific aspects of the individual fantasy and/or how far along the offender is at “perfecting” it (Holmes & De Burger 1988)." http://hunteremkay.com/2012/04/c-is-...serial-killer/

Speaking of 'obvious progressive changes', you might agree with me, MacGuffin, on the evidence regarding local blue collar vs. white collar, possibly outsider.

Couldn't the incorporated labourer of today be the toff of yesteryear?