Robert Paul, Jack the Ripper?

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Why are you so certain "it's as simple as that", that a Lloyd's journalist wrote Paul's [accusatory] story in his own words?

Let us assume the Robert Paul story was accurately reported.

How would that impact on matters?

Regards,

Simon

[Lechmere]

It is of course very amusing to try and make a case that Paul as the culprit.
It is fairly clear that Paul worked from Corbets Court but the direction of his carman's work was from there to Covent Garden - a Fruit and Veg Market like Spitalfields Market.
Paul was taken from his house and kept at a police station all day - clearly being interrogated.
His remarkable Statement was clearly influenced by his reading of the first sensationalised press reports an d is a strange mixture of fact and fiction. He bigs up his own role but identifies the unnamed Lechmere as being where the woman was (not in the middle of the road).
He also describes how he was in effect scared of Lechmere when approached in Bucks Row.
I find the comments that Paul's statement is somehow unhelpful to the Lechmere case particularly telling. It illustrates a stark lack of understanding.

[Lechmere]

Here is my notes on Paul and his family - some may not be him - there is a possibility of a move south of the River that I haven't verified.

Robert Paul in Ancestry

1st October 1851 – Marriage (father’s) St Anne’s, Limehouse
James Paul, Dyer - Limehouse - father Richard Paul (Weaver)
Susan Wheeler - Limehouse - father William George Wheeler (Weaver)

Jan-Feb-March 1856 - Birth Index - Robert Paul, born, Bethnal Green

1871 Census
4 Wellington Street, Bethnal Green (South) – occupied whole house.
James Paul – Head – married – 60 –Dyer – Born Bethnal Green
Susan Paul – Wife – 53 – Born Mile End
James Paul – Son – 30 – Fish Curer – Born Finsbury
Susan Paul – Daughter – 26 – Weaver - Born Finsbury
Henry Paul – Son – 24 – Carman - Born Finsbury
Alfred Paul – Son – 22 – Ginger Beer maker - Born Finsbury
Robert Paul – Son – 13 – Errand Boy – Born Hackney
William Paul – Son – 9 – Born Spitalfields
Jane Paul – Daughter in Law – Married - 22 – Born Whitechapel
Sarah Johnson – Grand Daughter – 8 - Born Whitechapel
Edwin Paul – Son – 19 – Cap Peak Maker – Born Hackney
Jane Paul – Grand Daughter – 1 – Born Whitechapel

28th September 1879 – Marriage - St Jude’s, Bethnal Green
Robert Paul, aged 22, Carman – 108 North Street – father James Paul (Dyer)
Julia Hurley, aged 19 – 6 Gloucester gardens - father Cornelius Hurley (Labourer)

Jul-Aug-Sep 1880 - Birth Index - Robert Paul, born, Bethnal Green

1881 Census
30 Foster Street, Bethnal Green – 3 families in house (12 people)
Robert Pawle – Head – married – 24 – Carman – Born Mile End
Julia Pawle – Wife – married – 22 – Paper Rag Sorter – Born Mile End
Robert Pawle – Son – 8 months – Born Mile End

Jan-Feb-Mar 1883 - Birth Index Ellen Paul, born, Bethnal Green

Jan-Feb-Mar 1884 - Death Index - Robert Paul, died aged 3, Bethnal Green

Oct-Nov-Dec 1885 - Birth Index - Mary Paul, born, Bethnal Green

1887 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 30 Foster Street, Bethnal Green South West

Jul-Aug-Sep 1887 - Birth Index - Julia Paul, born, Bethnal Green

1888 - Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 30 Foster Street, Bethnal Green South West

Oct-Nov-Dec 1888 - Birth Index - Margaret Paul, born, Bethnal Green

1889 - Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 30 Foster Street, Bethnal Green South West

1891 Census
159 Sidney Street, Mile End Old Town – occupied whole house of 4 rooms
Robert Paul – Head – married – 32 - Carman – Neither employer nor employed - Born Bethnal Green
Julia Paul – Wife – married – 29 – Born Bethnal Green
Ellen Paul – Daughter - 8 - Scholar – Born Bethnal Green
Mary Paul – Daughter - 5 - Scholar – Born Bethnal Green
Julia Paul – Daughter - 3 – Born Bethnal Green
Margaret Paul – Daughter - 2 – Born Bethnal Green

Apr-May-Jun 1892 - Birth Index - Cornelius Paul, born Bethnal Green

Oct-Nov-Dec 1893 - Birth Index - Robert Paul, born Camberwell

Oct-Nov-Dec 1895 - Birth Index - Michael Paul, born Camberwell

1897 School Admission
St Joseph’s Roman Catholic School, Tower Hamlets
Julia Paul, Date of Admission 06/09/97 – Date of Birth 24/07/87 – 4 Wheeler Street
Margaret Paul, Date of Admission 06/09/97 – Date of Birth 11/09/89 – 4 Wheeler Street
Cornelius Paul, Date of Admission 06/09/97 - Date of Birth 25/03/91 - 4 Wheeler Street
Robert Paul, Date of Admission 06/09/97 - Date of Birth 06/09/93 - 4 Wheeler Street

1898 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 14 Laurel Terrace, Southwark, Camberwell North

1898 School Admission
St Joseph’s Roman Catholic School, Tower Hamlets
Michael Paul, Date of Admission 23/08/98 – Date of Birth 23/08/95 – 55 Granville Buildings, Paul Street

1901 Census:
3 New Square, Quaker Street, Spitalfields – occupied whole dwelling of 2 rooms
Robert Paul – Head – married – 40 - Carter – Worker - Born Mile End, London
Julia Paul – Wife – married – 39 – Born Mile End, London
Ellen Paul – Daughter – single - 18 - Store Shop - Worker – Born Mile End, London
Mary Paul – Daughter – single – 15 - Paper Box maker - Worker – Born Mile End, London
Julia Paul – Daughter - 14 – Born Mile End, London
Maggie Paul – Daughter - 12 – Born Mile End, London
Cornelius Paul – Son - 9 - Born Mile End, London
Robert Paul – Son - 8 - Born Mile End, London
Michael Paul – Son - 6 - Born Mile End, London

1902 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 3 New Square (Quaker Street), Whitechapel
1903 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 3 New Square (Quaker Street), Whitechapel
1904 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 3 New Square (Quaker Street), Whitechapel
1905 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 3 New Square (Quaker Street), Whitechapel
1906 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 3 New Square (Quaker Street), Whitechapel
1907 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 3 New Square (Quaker Street), Whitechapel
1909 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 1 Smiths Buildings, Diss Street, Bethnal Green South West

Jan-Feb-Mar 1909 - Birth Index - Alfred Paul, born Bethnal Green

1910 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 1 Smiths Buildings, Diss Street, Bethnal Green South West.

27th March 1910 – Marriage - St Bartholomew’s, Bethnal Green
Benjamin Miller, aged 24, Porter – 33 Barnsley Houses – father William John Miller (Carpenter)
Julia Paul, aged 22 – 33 Barnsley Houses - father Robert Paul (Carman)
Witnesses – Philip Emanuel and Mary Paul

1911 Census
78 Somerford House, Bethnal Green - 3 rooms
Ellen Paul – Head (crossed out Daughter) – 28 – Cloth Tester, Merchant Tailors - Born Bethnal Green
Margaret Paul – Sister – 22 – Cigarette Maker - Born Bethnal Green
Cornelius Paul – Brother – 18 – Carman, Railway - Born Bethnal Green
Robert Paul – Brother – 17 – Van Guard, Railway - Born Camberwell
Alfred Paul – Brother – 2 – Born Bethnal Green

On Board HMS Indomitable, Gillingham
Michael Paul – 18 – Stoker – Born Camberwell

Apr-May-Jun 1912 - Marriage Index - Cornelius Paul married Ellen Coyle, West Ham,

12th April 1914 – Marriage - St Peter’s, West Hackney
Arthur Charles Childs, aged 30, Motor Omnibus Driver – 3 De Beauvoir Crescent – father Thomas Charles Childs
Mary Paul, aged 28, Boxmaker - De Beauvoir Crescent – father, Robert Paul (Carman)
Witnesses - Robert Paul and Margaret Paul

25th January 1915 British Army WW1 Service Records.
Cornelius Paul - aged 21 - Carman - married
84 Glenthorne Road, Walthamstow
Next of kin - Ellen Paul, 84 Glenthorne Road, Walthamstow
Wife Ellen Coyle, married in Parish Church Walthamstow, 16th June 1912
Children – Cornelius (born 29th September 1912), Irene (born 6th April 1914)
Had worked for Henry Evans & Sons Ltd for 2 years as a horse driver.

20th June 1915 – Marriage - St Michael and All Angels, Hackney
Robert Paul, aged 22, Carman – 22 Tower Street – father, Robert Paul (Carman)
Emily Martha Jane Wheaton, aged 21 – 22 Tower Street – father, John Wheaton (Furniture Packer)

13th November 1916 – Marriage - St Anthony’s, Stepney
Michael Paul, aged 22, Sailor – 1 Cornwall Place – father, Robert Paul (Carman)
Matilda Louisa Edney, aged 21 – 1 Cornwall Place – father, Henry James Edney (Labourer)
Witnesses – Philip Emanuel and Mary Paul

Oct-Nov-Dec 1922 - Death Index - Robert Paul, died aged 62, London C

1923 Electoral Register - Robert Paul, 3 Allas Road, (abode 23 Lamb Street, Spitalfields E1), Bethnal Green East.

1934 - Electoral Register - 3 Dickenson Road N8Haringey, Hornsey, Stroud Green Ward (South).
Robert Walter Paul, Emily Paul

1935 - Electoral Register - 3 Dickenson Road N8Haringey, Hornsey, Stroud Green Ward (South).
Robert Walter Paul, Emily Paul.

1936 - Electoral Register - 3 Dickenson Road N8, Haringey, Hornsey, Stroud Green Ward.
Robert Walter Paul, Emily Paul.

1937 - Electoral Register - 3 Dickenson Road N8, Haringey, Hornsey, Stroud Green Ward.
Robert Walter Paul, Emily Paul.

1938 - Electoral Register - 3 Dickenson Road N8, Haringey, Hornsey, Stroud Green Ward.
Robert Walter Paul, Emily Paul.

1939 - Electoral Register - 3 Dickenson Road N8, Haringey, Hornsey, Stroud Green Ward.
Robert Walter Paul, Emily Paul.

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

Why are you so certain "it's as simple as that", that a Lloyd's journalist wrote Paul's [accusatory] story in his own words?

Let us assume the Robert Paul story was accurately reported.

How would that impact on matters?

Regards,

Simon

Phrases such as "I was obliged to be punctual at my work" and "as I knew the dangerous character of the locality I tried to give him a wide berth" don't sound like something a carman would say, or indeed anyone - the whole statement reads like written rather than spoken English.

However, it is too tempting to resist your invitation and assume that the LWN report is 100% accurate and from Paul's own lips. If it was, then there is a decent case to be made that Paul was the murderer of Nichols.

Let's look at it:

"It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row" - at the inquest, Paul said it was about quarter to four when he left his house while Mizen said it was a quarter to four when he spoke to Cross and Paul in Baker's Row. So Paul is trying to give the impression he was walking down Buck's Row about 10 minutes later than was the case (thus not giving him time to murder Nichols).

"to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market" - a blatant lie told in the hope that the police wouldn't be able find him (destroyed when Cross told the inquest he turned into Corbett's Court).

"but as I knew the dangerous character of the locality I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about" - trying to say that any of these terrible people could have done the murder.

"so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw" - another blatant lie which he was forced to retract at the inquest in the face of the evidence of Mizen and Cross but designed to emphasise his willingness to inform the authorities.

"He continued calling the people up" - something he could not have known because he had run off to work (although he was really trying to get away from the scene of the crime) and a way of deflecting attention.

"The woman was so cold that she must have been dead some time" - a transparent attempt to push the time of death back so that he couldn't have done it.

"she must have been murdered somewhere else and carried there" - wants to shift the scene from Bucks Row where he had been discovered by Cross.

So there is material there to make a Lechmere type case against Paul - and if he really did tell lies to a journalist it creates suspicion against him in the same way as Lechmere's apparent lie to Mizen does - but I certainly don't case myself and believe it is unsafe to rely on a story in a newspaper, especially when that story conflicts with Paul's evidence.

[David Orsam]

It is of course very amusing to try and make a case that Paul as the culprit.

It is indeed! In truth, there isn't that much difference between the case against Paul and that against Cross - except that the evidence suggesting Cross lied is based on police testimony at an inquest whereas that which suggests that Paul lied (something you actually seem to accept by your use of phrase "bigs up his own role") is from a newspaper and has probably been mangled by the reporter. Any lie by a witness who discovers a body creates grounds for suspicion and de facto makes them a suspect.

Very comprehensive info about Paul btw Lechmere - thanks for posting that.

[Trevor Marriott]

It is indeed! In truth, there isn't that much difference between the case against Paul and that against Cross - except that the evidence suggesting Cross lied is based on police testimony at an inquest whereas that which suggests that Paul lied (something you actually seem to accept by your use of phrase "bigs up his own role") is from a newspaper and has probably been mangled by the reporter. Any lie by a witness who discovers a body creates grounds for suspicion and de facto makes them a suspect.

Very comprehensive info about Paul btw Lechmere - thanks for posting that.

And any killer who remains with a victim when having the opportunity to make good his escape unseen is almost unheard of !

Whether that be Paul or Cross or Simon Woods Aunt Dorothy !

[The Good Michael]

Simon,

Does this mean Paul gave his name incorrectly?

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi GM,

Sorry, does what mean Paul gave his name incorrectly?

Regards,

Simon

[Robert]

Robert Paul remarried in 1916 (info from a descendant).

[The Good Michael]

Hi GM,

Sorry, does what mean Paul gave his name incorrectly?

Regards,

Simon

Simon,

'Paul' rather than 'Pawle'. At least Cross gave his stepfather's name that he inherited at a very young age.

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi GM,

Pawle might have been a Census enumerator's error.

The Times called him Baul.

Regards,

Simon

[Lechmere]

Just in case you are being serious David

Is there any record of a policeman giving a different account of a conversation Paul had with him. No.
Was Paul found by the body by someone else? No.
Did Paul give his real name? Yes.
Do we have reason to think Paul came under suspicion, was visited at his house or was interrogated? Yes.

For Paul to have killed Nichols he would have to have doubled back to the end of Bucks Row hidden and re-appeared after Lechmere passed. Why were the abdominal wounds covered? Where did he hide? What did he do that for?

Why did Paul suggest that she was killed elsewhere? Perhaps because that is what al the newspapers said.
Why did he say Mizen continued calling up? Mizen admitted he knocked on one more door and Lechmere also said he continued knocking up.
Paul said he left home just before 3.45 at the inquest and in the newspaper said he got to the crime scene at 3.45. Those timings agree with themselves.
He said he worked for Covent Garden - that does not negate working for a business based at Corbet's Court.

Did Paul have any reason to be in the Berner Street area? Not so far as we know.
Did Paul have any reason to go down Old Montague Street and Wentworth Street while walking to work? - No

[Robert]

In the 1911 census, Caroline Gannon, widow, is shown with a daughter Elizabeth Paul aged 2, so the relationship must have developed a few years before they got married.

[Lechmere]

Yes Simon you ay have something there. Hey! Maybe there was a census enumerator's error in 1861 and the two Lechmere children were called Cross on the mistaken assumption that they were Thomas Cross's kids.

[gnote]

If you take a map and pinpoint the murder sites, combined with every place Paul resided and then include anybody he might have been related to or been friends with you can draw an isosceles triangle, circle or various trapezoid like shapes around them all.

This is pretty damning evidence of Paul's guilt if you ask me.

I have a new book entitled "Jack The Ripper - Geometry of Serial Killer" coming out soon.