Suspect battle: Cross/Lechmere vs. Hutchinson

[drstrange169]

>> ...it IS the truth that the Broad Street depot handled meat to a very significant extent, as per a renowned expert ...

Hello Fish, That wouldn't happen to be a John Moore University expert would it?

This meat thing is some what symptomatic of the whole case against Crossmere.

As MrB has pointed out. Arthur Ingram's book specifically points out he has no expertise in pre-motorized Pickfords.

I've been researching Broad Street for a few months now and whilst I'm far from expert, I've yet to uncover a single reference to meat being handled there in the 1880's. That seems a very odd statistic if meat was supposed to be their main fare. And there's is a good reason why that is the case, Smithfields had a direct rail link that went to their basement goods yard.


"... beneath the market buildings (Smithfields) lay an extensive basement area enabling livestock to be brought to the market by rail, unloaded and taken straight to the market above for sale."
(GWR Goods Services – Part 2A – Goods Depots and their Operation written by Tony Atkins)

(See diagram below)



>> As I understood things, the meat that came to to Broad Street was apparently predominantly meat shipped in from the sea and brought to the depot, like for example South-american meat. <<

Below is a contemporary table that shows the amount of imported meat from South America. As you can see the yearly total from South America for the WHOLE of the U.K. in 1888 wouldn't supply a week's work for one man, let alone the busiest goods yard in the country.In fact, prior to 1884, there was NO meat coming in from South America.


>>The volumes were of such proportions so as to ensure that Lechmere or any carman that worked for a long period of time in Broad Street would have been involved with it.<<

Not according to my research, quite the contrary in fact. The volumes do dramatically increase in the years after 1888. Perhaps your expert was a little confused, maybe even misplaced a decimal point;-)



>> He does agree, however, that it seems completely logical to expect that carmen would have carried knives to be able to cut their harnesses in the events of accidents <<

As, of course, would Paul, a pocket knife.



>>Arthur Ingram ... I tend to think that he would know.<<

At this stage, I'm thinking not, but we'll see.

[MrBarnett]

I have a real problem with a claim that the Pickford's depot [probably at the time their biggest] nearest possibly the busiest freight terminal in London carted only meat, when Pickford's were General Carriers. In fact I have seen photos here on Casebook of Pickford wagons [said to be at Broad Street] loaded to the hilt with boxes of general cargo were they actually Broad street I have no idea.

GUT,

Ive seen those same images : wicker hampers, rolls of carpet or Lino, watering cans etc. Not a bloody haunch of meat in sight .

What doesn't make sense to me is the location of Broad Street as a meat depot. Surely the reason for a depot at Broad Street was to handle freight that arrived at the freight station. And that, as far as I am aware, did not include huge quantities of meat.

Imported meat would have arrived at the docks, and domestically produced meat would have come into the vast Metropolitan Cattle Market (on the hoof) and its associated slaughterhouses in Islington. Pickfords certainly had a depot there.

MrB

[GUT]

I have a real problem with a claim that the Pickford's depot [probably at the time their biggest] nearest possibly the busiest freight terminal in London carted only meat, when Pickford's were General Carriers. In fact I have seen photos here on Casebook of Pickford wagons [said to be at Broad Street] loaded to the hilt with boxes of general cargo were they actually Broad street I have no idea.

[MrBarnett]

... which is in line with what Iīm saying. What the Pickfords depot work could have added would be a constant presence and reminder of butchery and meat, perhaps alongside with physical contact with it.

In the end, it is written in the stars what made him snap - but to those who need a connection with the meat business: here it is.

The best,
Fisherman

Fish,

I am one of those on the look-out for a connection to the meat business. But what I had in mind was someone who had become inured to killing and evisceration, not someone whose experience was limited to carting boxes of corned beef to Sainsbury's.

By the way, I have read Mr. Ingrams' history of Pickfords. He is clearly an expert on motorised transport and devotes only 4 pages of text to the 250 year history of Pickfords prior to the motor age. In fact, the dustwrapper blurb makes a point of saying that he had to research outside his field to produce even this brief introduction.

MrB

[Fisherman]

I'm sorry Fish but people actually do misunderstand and mis hear every day it's not rare it is common, what is rare is that they are aware that they have mis heard or mis understood.

And what is more common, Gut?

That people get it right?

Or that they misunderstand and get it wrong?

Is it fifty-fifty?

Or is it more like ninetynine to one?

While you ponder that very easy question, I will go to sleep. Nighty-night!

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Do you mean to say that ISN'T what you're doing, Fish?

Also, I'm still waiting to hear your explanation for why Crossmere stopped killing. I know you'll probably have recourse to Dennis Rader, who stopped for a period, but he's the exception, not the rule, no? And need I remind you that Rader inevitably started up again.

Yes, you actually do have to remind me that Rader started up again, because thatīs news to me. As far as I know, what he did was to respond to the policeīs seting a trap for his pride. I always thought that Rader was caught fourteen years after his last murder, having committed no murders in those fourteen years.

Maybe Iīm about to learn something new, though...?

As for the explanation to why Lechmere stopped killing, I have already told you that

A/ There are examples of those who did, and
B/ We have absolutely no idea whether Lechmere DID stop killing or not.

It would be a futile exercise to try and explain what we cannot know happened.

It was a more fruitful exercise to turn your reasoning about my supposed bias against yourself, though - it really, really seems as though you are dead set on proving to yourself that I am fitting Lechmere up.

Good luck with that. And with reading up on Dennis Rader.

All the best,
Fisherman

[GUT]

I'm sorry Fish but people actually do misunderstand and mis hear every day it's not rare it is common, what is rare is that they are aware that they have mis heard or mis understood.

[Fisherman]

[ATTACH]16405[/ATTACH]

Fish,

You must have seen this sort of image before. A typical Victorian butchers display. Lechmere, along with the rest of the population, would have walked past this kind of thing pretty much every day of his life.

Familiarity with such sights was not limited to Pickfords Broad Street employees.

MrB

... which is in line with what Iīm saying. What the Pickfords depot work could have added would be a constant presence and reminder of butchery and meat, perhaps alongside with physical contact with it.

In the end, it is written in the stars what made him snap - but to those who need a connection with the meat business: here it is.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

But it ncludes real life experience with people remembering things the way that they want to.

People misunderstand. It is a possibility.

People normally donīt misunderstand or mishear. Thatīs a fact.

Thatīs about it.

The best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Yes, GUT. I posted the image before adding the text. Sorry!

[GUT]

[ATTACH]16405[/ATTACH]

MrB

Butchers?

[Harry D]

So that means that once you got it into your head that I am trying to fit up Lechmere, you are ready to go to any lengths to corroborate this view of yours, no matter if you are wrong or not?

Do you mean to say that ISN'T what you're doing, Fish?

Also, I'm still waiting to hear your explanation for why Crossmere stopped killing. I know you'll probably have recourse to Dennis Rader, who stopped for a period, but he's the exception, not the rule, no? And need I remind you that Rader inevitably started up again.

[MrBarnett]

[ATTACH]16405[/ATTACH]

Fish,

You must have seen this sort of image before. A typical Victorian butchers display. Lechmere, along with the rest of the population, would have walked past this kind of thing pretty much every day of his life.

Familiarity with such sights was not limited to Pickfords Broad Street employees.

MrB

[GUT]

But it ncludes real life experience with people remembering things the way that they want to.

[Fisherman]

On Mizan what is Cross/Paul said

"You're needed in Buck's Row"

How easy for Mizan, when he finds Neil there to remember it as "a Policeman needs you there"?

No, not at all. He would have interpreted "You are needed in Buckīs Row" as a general statement that there was a situation in Buckīs Row that required his presence. As a policeman, he would reasonably have been used to having people approach him and tell him that his presence was needed in different places and for different reasons, and once such a request was made, there would normally NOT be another PC present. In such cases, his presence would NOT be needed - the other PC would tend to the situation. When there is already a PC in place, people donīt go around telling PC:s in adjoining blocks that they are needed to tend to a situation already in another PC:s hand.

The construction as such is remarkable: You are needed in Buckīs Row. Another policeman wants you there." Thatīs not something you would hear every day!

Besides, none of the words in the phrase "You are needed in Buckīs Row" even faintly resembles "policeman".

This construction is one made specifically to try and explain away what was actually said - and recorded. It lacks logic, it lacks a word that could be confused for "police" and it lacks substantiation in the records.

Itīs an alternative interpretation that has nothing going for it. Thatīs just how it is.

The best,
Fisherman

PS. And Paul said NOTHING!