Suspect battle: Cross/Lechmere vs. Hutchinson

[Lechmere]

Jon
If he was living in the Victoria Home it would mean that every time he went out to commit a murder he either spent the night afterwards roaming around - not very safe I would suggest, and his absences on such occasions would likely be noted. Or he had a special pass that allowed late entry - which would mean he would stick out like a sore thumb coming in late on murder nights.
The lodging houses were regularly checked over by the police after each murder and the inmates at the Victoria Home, although it was large, were subject to more scrutiny by the people who ran it than most other establishments, and from contemporary accounts it is clear that the deputy did familiarise himself with his inmates, particularly the longer term ones.

[Jon Guy]

Ed

If he was living in the Victoria Home it would mean that every time he went out to commit a murder he either spent the night afterwards roaming around - not very safe I would suggest, .

Surely, roaming around after a murder was the safest option. But obviously, not around the Spitalfields area.

and his absences on such occasions would likely be noted..

Possibly, if he rarely missed a night at his usual doss. But I suspect many of these doss house dwellers had a night or two when they couldn`t afford a bed.

But less likely to be noted than say, someone who was married and his own place.

The lodging houses were regularly checked over by the police after each murder and the inmates at the Victoria Home, although it was large, were subject to more scrutiny by the people who ran it than most other establishments, and from contemporary accounts it is clear that the deputy did familiarise himself with his inmates, particularly the longer term ones.

Absolutely, the Victoria Home deputy was called in to give a character reference following the McKenzie murder.

[MrBarnett]

In line with the evidence? Maybe in line with the evidence as you know it, Mr Barnett.
The evidence as I know it comes very close to clinching that he lied to Mizen about the other PC. And that DOES scream "suspect"!

And of course, there is much more relating to Lechmere that has not been presented here - some of it new evidence to you, no doubt.

What Hutchinson has going for him is the unwillingness to accept his testimony. But even if he did add a few gadgets on his own, or if he simply invented A man, there is nothing involved in it that pronounces "suspect" other than in the softest of whispers.

Comparing Hutchinson to Lechmere is bonkers.

The best,
Fisherman

PS. Let me ask you a question: If I could convince you that Lechmere lied about the second PC - would you accept Lechmere as the probable Ripper in such a case? Or would you suggest that he did it to get to work sooner...?

Fish which of my amendments do you consider not in line with the evidence as you know it? All I was doing was scaling down your absolute certainty to allow for an element of doubt in both cases.

Are you certain that Hutch saw Kelly with a man exactly as he described?

Or are you 100% certain that Lech lied and there is no
possibility of the error being on Mizen's side? (Surely it can't be that because in your own words that is not quite clinched).

In answer to your question: If you could prove that Lech had lied, there would be a number of possibilities. He was JTR. He wanted to get to work ASAP. He was scared of possible repercussions from gangs or Mrs Lech.

And if it could be proved that Hutch's description was a tad exaggerated, there would be options there too.

MrB

[MrBarnett]

I'm somewhat reluctant to get involved in these 'versus' type discussions...

Hutchinson - the son of someone called George Hutchinson claimed that the witness was his father. This is strongly resisted by those who push Hutchinson as the Ripper, but I would suggest that unless there is a very good reason to disbelieve this claim, then there is no sensible reason to claim the family were lying.
When this George Hutchinson ('Toppy') is investigated in the records he closely fits the one interrogated by Abberline.
I'm not so certain over where Hutchinson lived during this period, but the Victoria Home certainly had a curfew at 1.00 am-ish which meant it was a particularly unsuitable lodging for a night stalker (again this is denied - by some - advocates of Hutchinson).
Then we know that Hutchinson was interrogated by Abberline.
Hutchinson went around with policemen afterwards looking for the A-man, he gave a press interview - he was very much embroiled in the case for a period, when public, police and media awareness was at its most heightened.
Yet he was not identified as the man seen by Lewis loitering.

As for Lechmere
Cross wasn't 'a name which was on record as being his'. It was never 'his'. His stepfather entered it as his name in the 1861 census that is all that can be said.
Is there anything about him that screams suspect?
Well he was found very close to a dead body by another person, before he had raised the alarm. That usually screams suspect. Indeed although one may believe that the police wudda shudda cudda investigate him and clear him, we have absolutely no evidence to back up the suggestion that they did and accordingly, when revisiting the case it is sensible to go on what we know. The one thing about this that we do know is that it looks like the police did not discover his true name so, in turn it seems likely that they did not investigate him.
When someone who is found by a dead body then gives a name to the authorities other than that by which he always records himself, then I would suggest that it would be usual to regard that act with suspicion.
When someone then meets a policeman and the alternative versions of their conversation at totally at odds, over he discovery of a dead person, then I would suggest that is grounds for suspicion and indeed 'screams' suspect.
There are of course many other issues - such as the geography of where the bodies were found (including Stride and the Pinchin Street Torso) and the apron location, and the timings on the morning of 31st August and his attire at the inquest and Nichols's clothing covering her abdominal wounds - to name just a few - that add to the scream of 'suspect'.
It is also the case that Nichols was the only twice discovered body, and the version that PC Neil discovered the body remained in place until 3rd September, when Lechmere belatedly came forward - after Paul's newspaper account was published that put him, alone, standing where the body was.
In my opinion.

Please overcome your reluctance, Ed. Anything to save us from the dreaded shawl!!

You make two very interesting points above.

The first is that we cannot be sure where Hutch lived during the period in question. I'm sure you're right, but we can assume that he was effectively homeless and that if he wasn't in the VH, he was probably staying at another lodging house in the area. By his own account he had known Kelly for three years, so he had presumably lived in the area for some time.

The second is the suggestion that Lech's familiarity with St Geo. E makes him a more likely suspect in relation to Berners Street and Pinchin Street. But if Hutch had known Kelly for three years he would have known her while she was living in St Geo.

The words nip and tuck come to mind.

MrB

[Fisherman]

MrBarnett: Fish which of my amendments do you consider not in line with the evidence as you know it?

That will be when you say that he possibly lied to take himself past the police. There is evidence that he very likely, almost certainly, did this.

Are you certain that Hutch saw Kelly with a man exactly as he described?

No, I am not, since I can´t be. Nobody can, just as nobody can be certain that it did NOT happen the way he told it.

Or are you 100% certain that Lech lied and there is no
possibility of the error being on Mizen's side? (Surely it can't be that because in your own words that is not quite clinched).

I would go 99 per cent certain on that one.

In answer to your question: If you could prove that Lech had lied, there would be a number of possibilities. He was JTR. He wanted to get to work ASAP. He was scared of possible repercussions from gangs or Mrs Lech.

Just how credible would it be that a family man, a meek working man, would take the risk of conning the police for the only gain to get to work faster?

I think the mere suggestion is laughable.

... but then again, that only puts it on par with many more suggestions I have seen to try and save Lechmere´s behind, so who´s surprised?

All the best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Here's a joke for you then, Fish.

Some years ago, on my way home from work, I was stopped by a policeman outside Barking station and asked if I would care to participate in an identity parade. A vicious assault had taken place at the station and they had apprehended a suspect on the basis of a witness statement and were looking for men of a similar age and appearance to stand beside him at the police station.

When I say the policeman asked me, he was a very large and forceful looking sergeant and the request came across as more of a command.

Being the meek working man I was, I complied with his request and went to the Police Station. When I got there I was ushered into a room containing a number of other men all complaining bitterly about having been kept waiting for half an hour or more. After some 45 minutes I was still there and nothing had happened. This was in the pre mobile phone days and I was becoming more and more concerned that my wife would be worried and my dinner burned. At last I left the room, went up to the desk sergeant and told him that I couldn't wait any longer as I had to take my daughter to a doctors appointment (a complete lie). He gave me a suspicious scowl, but said nothing and made no attempt to stop me leaving.

Totally ridiculous, eh?

MrB

[Fisherman]

Here's a joke for you then, Fish.

Some years ago, on my way home from work, I was stopped by a policeman outside Barking station and asked if I would care to participate in an identity parade. A vicious assault had taken place at the station and they had apprehended a suspect on the basis of a witness statement and were looking for men of a similar age and appearance to stand beside him at the police station.

When I say the policeman asked me, he was a very large and forceful looking sergeant and the request came across as more of a command.

Being the meek working man I was, I complied with his request and went to the Police Station. When I got there I was ushered into a room containing a number of other men all complaining bitterly about having been kept waiting for half an hour or more. After some 45 minutes I was still there and nothing had happened. This was in the pre mobile phone days and I was becoming more and more concerned that my wife would be worried and my dinner burned. At last I left the room, went up to the desk sergeant and told him that I couldn't wait any longer as I had to take my daughter to a doctors appointment (a complete lie). He gave me a suspicious scowl, but said nothing and made no attempt to stop me leaving.

Totally ridiculous, eh?

MrB

As a comparison, yes.

You did go with the police that chose you.

If you wouldn´t have wanted to, you would have said "Look, I´m due to be home at XX, and it´s really important....", because that´s how we do it.

We don´t produce elaborate lies to take us past the police. Your lie was an attempt to get away at a stage when you knew that somebody else would substitute you, you realized that the copper was not going to call your relatives and check your story - it was of a very inferior amplitude to him.

Neither am I sure to what degree the lie you told could be otherwise detected. Lechmere would arguably have to walk Buck´s Row into Mizen territory the day after, and perhaps be faced with the very awkward task of explaining why he had fooled the constable. And THAT would have taken some substantial time, I reckon. He would have wanted to avoid that, since it could have had him in all sorts of trouble.

So your comparison fails on every level.

That´s not to say that he could not have tried to bluff the PC in order to get to work sooner.

In that case, the correlation with the murder places, the false name, the timings, the ommission to state his address at the inquest, the failure on Pauls behalf to notice Lechmere, him saying that he was late too as Paul threatened to leave him alone with the body, the appearance at the inquest in working clothes and apron, the timegap allowing for him to kill, the pulled down dress on Nichols - then all of these things are just deplorably bad-looking coincidences.

If none of them were coincidental, though - and we should be careful not to accept too many coincidences - then the lie he told Mizen fits exactly with the scenario I am proposing.

The best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Fish,

Fails on every level ?

I was a man travelling on my working route and I told a lie to a police official to avoid unnecessary delay to my journey.

And my lie was an out and outer, in comparison to Lech's choice of words that possibly hinted that there might already be another PC on the scene.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced I must be guilty. The assault was on my route to work and I lied to avoid being in the line up. Case very nearly clinched.

MrB

[Lechmere]

I think I'd rather discuss the shawl.

[Fisherman]

I think I'd rather discuss the shawl.

I´m in.

Fisherman

[lynn cates]

false name

Hello Mr B.

"Case very nearly clinched."

Ah! But do you use a false name? Are you indeed known as Mr Barnett?

Hmm, case closed. Let's go home.

Cheers.
LC

[MrBarnett]

Hello Mr B.

"Case very nearly clinched."

Ah! But do you use a false name? Are you indeed known as Mr Barnett?

Hmm, case closed. Let's go home.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I have never used a false name myself. But a friend of mine, somewhat under the influence, once gave his name as Slarty Bartfast to a young and over zealous officer of the law. The bruises took several weeks to disappear.

MrB

[RockySullivan]

Both hutch & Lechmere make interesting persons of interests. From our view today that serial killers frequently insert themselves into the investigation. I'm sure more info Lechmere & Hutch will turn up in the future.

[RockySullivan]

But do either Hutch or Lech have the knife skills?

[MrBarnett]

But do either Hutch or Lech have the knife skills?

Hello Rocky,

Lech's mother ran a horse meat business from Pinchin Street (a few yards from where the torso was found), so maybe he had some knife skills.

MrB