Who really witnessed Jack the Ripper?

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hello Sir. John.

"Abberline believed the man seen drinking a beer just after Chapman's death was Isenschmidt. Maybe that's where Abberline made a mistake. I think this man described and followed could be the ripper."

I don't understand. Where's the mistake?

Cheers.
LC

the possible mistake could be Abberline assuming that Issenschmidt was the man seen and followed after Chapman's murder.

I haven't read everything, but so far, I haven't seen the man being formally identified by the two women in the public house and the man who followed him.

"It is not known if Isenschmid was ever formally identified as the man Mrs Fiddymont, the landlady of the Prince Albert public house, 21 Brushfield Street, better known as the 'Clean House,' had seen entering the pub at 7am on the 8 September, shortly after the murder of Annie Chapman. The man's rough appearance had frightened her. Fiddymont was in the pub talking to a friend, Mary Chappell, when she noticed the man's shirt was torn and that he had blood splashes on his hand and below his ear. He was wearing a dark coat and a brown stiff hat pulled over his eyes. The man ordered, and quickly drank his half pint of four ale, and left the pub, whereupon he was followed by Joseph Taylor, a builder who lived at 22 Stewart Street. Taylor, who was described as a perfectly reliable man, well known throughout the neighbourhood, said, 'The man walked very rapidly with a peculiar springy walk that I would recognise again, he carried himself very erect, like a horse soldier. His neck was rather long, and he was holding his coat together at the top. He had a nervous and frightened way about him and his appearance was exceedingly strange'. Taylor watched the man go as far as Dirty Dicks in Half-Moon Street. He described the man as thin, about 5ft 8"tall, 40/50 years of age with a ginger coloured moustache, curling at the ends. And short sandy hair, his eyes, wild like hawk's, and dressed shabby genteel, with a loose fitting pair of trousers and a dark coat.

As Isenschmid was described as early 40's about 5ft 7"tall, very ferocious looking with ginger hair and a normally powerful build, now shrunken with starvation, it would be a fair assumption to say that Isenschmid was the man who called into Mrs Fiddymont's pub."

[Michael W Richards]

Kelly went out on the streets after she saw Blotchy.

Yes Jon, It was stated by a witness that she was out after 11:45, that witness did not live in the courtyard or at 26 Dorset, and no-one from that address saw her alive after 11:45pm....it was also stated by a witness that she spoke with someone at around 8:30am, that witness was told before she gave her testimony that her statement disagrees with the other facts in this case..like the est. TOD.

As we know well from these cases, a witness statement does not a fact make.

Cheers Jon

[Michael W Richards]

the possible mistake could be Abberline assuming that Issenschmidt was the man seen and followed after Chapman's murder.

I haven't read everything, but so far, I haven't seen the man being formally identified by the two women in the public house and the man who followed him.

"It is not known if Isenschmid was ever formally identified as the man Mrs Fiddymont, the landlady of the Prince Albert public house, 21 Brushfield Street, better known as the 'Clean House,' had seen entering the pub at 7am on the 8 September, shortly after the murder of Annie Chapman. The man's rough appearance had frightened her. Fiddymont was in the pub talking to a friend, Mary Chappell, when she noticed the man's shirt was torn and that he had blood splashes on his hand and below his ear. He was wearing a dark coat and a brown stiff hat pulled over his eyes. The man ordered, and quickly drank his half pint of four ale, and left the pub, whereupon he was followed by Joseph Taylor, a builder who lived at 22 Stewart Street. Taylor, who was described as a perfectly reliable man, well known throughout the neighbourhood, said, 'The man walked very rapidly with a peculiar springy walk that I would recognise again, he carried himself very erect, like a horse soldier. His neck was rather long, and he was holding his coat together at the top. He had a nervous and frightened way about him and his appearance was exceedingly strange'. Taylor watched the man go as far as Dirty Dicks in Half-Moon Street. He described the man as thin, about 5ft 8"tall, 40/50 years of age with a ginger coloured moustache, curling at the ends. And short sandy hair, his eyes, wild like hawk's, and dressed shabby genteel, with a loose fitting pair of trousers and a dark coat.

As Isenschmid was described as early 40's about 5ft 7"tall, very ferocious looking with ginger hair and a normally powerful build, now shrunken with starvation, it would be a fair assumption to say that Isenschmid was the man who called into Mrs Fiddymont's pub."

Seems like a fairly good possibility that Jacob may have had something to do with Annies murder...and due to the very similar nature of the murders of Polly and Annie, maybe both.

Problem is...if you are considering a suspect for a murder ONLY if he was available to perform later Canonicals, then Jacob isn't Jack. But then, where is it written in stone that this Jack fellow killed all five women?

Cheers

[Dr. John Watson]

As to moving Schwartz's sighting to 12:15-17, that would conflict with PC Smiths sighting at 12:35, a time that can hardly be moved due to the timing of the constables beat. He will have known from pure habit where he would be at any given time, which makes any adjustments by modern theorists very limited.

Sorry about that. I meant to write the times of Schwartz's sighting as 12:45-12:47. I must have been half asleep when I submitted that post.

Sleepy John

[Wickerman]

Yes Jon, It was stated by a witness that she was out after 11:45, that witness did not live in the courtyard or at 26 Dorset, and no-one from that address saw her alive after 11:45pm....it was also stated by a witness that she spoke with someone at around 8:30am, that witness was told before she gave her testimony that her statement disagrees with the other facts in this case..like the est. TOD.

As we know well from these cases, a witness statement does not a fact make.

Yes Michael, but any single witness statement is just as viable as the next, unless, it can be proven, or at least demonstrated, to be incorrect.
Maxwell's testimony although supported by M. Lewis, is demonstrated to be incorrect by the medical evidence.

We have nothing that proves, or even demonstrates, that the 2:00am, or even the 3:00am sightings were incorrect.
Lets challenge these witness sightings with rational evidence as opposed to bias opinion.

[lynn cates]

J I

Hello Sir john. Thanks.

"As Isenschmid was described as early 40's about 5ft 7"tall, very ferocious looking with ginger hair and a normally powerful build, now shrunken with starvation, it would be a fair assumption to say that Isenschmid was the man who called into Mrs Fiddymont's pub."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Sir john. Thanks.

"As Isenschmid was described as early 40's about 5ft 7"tall, very ferocious looking with ginger hair and a normally powerful build, now shrunken with starvation, it would be a fair assumption to say that Isenschmid was the man who called into Mrs Fiddymont's pub."

Now you're talking.

You know Lynn, I'm really beginning to warm to this Isenschmid guy. I still like Kelly, and have no issues with Kosminski save for the misremembering of things by a few folks, but Isenschmid is a workable suspect...very workable.

Mike

[Natasha]

Schwartz may not have seen the murder.
Swanson admitted there was enough time (10-15 mins?) after Schwartz left for another man to appear on the scene.

Hi Jon

I don't think that either. I think Schwartz needed to be investigated.
He said he witnessed Stride being attacked by a man. I know he said he was threatened, chased whatever, but why not report it to the police or someone else?
After all there had been 2 previous murders.

There may well have been enough time, but again why not report what he saw? Unless he was the killer.

[lynn cates]

Indeed?

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Are you serious or in jest? Many balk at having Kate out of the series. Do you see that as a problem?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Eddowes is the only problem for me, but I like Isenschmid. There's something that fits with him...even Blotchy works with a pinch of imagination.

So..I'm putting him in my top 3 of revolving suspects who I can never settle on.

Mike

[Steve S]

I...Will go for Mrs. Long's "foreign-looking" type........

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

Is there a daily or weekly account of Isenschmid's incarceration? I remember that Kosminski was let loose after a short stay, only to be committed again. Any possibility Isenschmid was let out for a month or so and then recommitted?

Mike

[lynn cates]

year

Hello Michael. Thanks.

He was in Grove Hall until February and thence to Banstead--almost a year.

Of course, EVEN if he were out and about it would be near impossible for him to have done the poor knife work on Kate. Some things are habitual for some of us.

Cheers.
LC

[Harry D]

Schwartz described "pipeman" as almost 6 foot tall, wearing dark overcoat and black, hard-felt wide-brimmed hat. Lawende described his suspect as "5 ft 7-8 ins" wearing a loose jacket and grey-cloth, peaked cap, with a red kerchief around his neck, resembling a sailor. No comparison at all. And given the distance and short time between the sightings, I don't see the killer taking the time to change his clothing, especially since he would have no reason to do so.

John ("Bugs") Watson

Hello John,

Good points, but let's consider that Lawende wasn't much of a witness, given that he stated he wouldn't be able to recognise the man in question again. And a matter of a few inches between the two suspects' heights is negligible.

For me, "BS" simply couldn't have been our man. He just doesn't match the MO of the Ripper, dragging women onto the street and slapping them about without any attempt at subterfuge. And he certainly would've taken off the moment he was spotted.

So either "BS" wasn't the Ripper, or if he was the killer then Stride wasn't a Ripper victim because his behaviour was so uncharacteristic of the man who stealthily butchered the other four. As I posted previously, Pipeman's actions are quite suspicious, insomuch that he was happy to watch a woman being mistreated and did nothing about it, not even reporting to the police afterwards. And when he did finally act, it was to stalk Schwartz, I say 'stalk' because Schwartz certainly felt that the man meant him harm, whoever he was. Furthermore, there wasn't any gossip regarding the incident, so Pipeman must have kept schtum about that night. If anything he's a very interesting witness and it's curious that nothing was ever garnered about him.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

I don't think that either. I think Schwartz needed to be investigated.
He said he witnessed Stride being attacked by a man. I know he said he was threatened, chased whatever, but why not report it to the police or someone else?
After all there had been 2 previous murders.

There may well have been enough time, but again why not report what he saw? Unless he was the killer.

Hi Natasha.
I'm sorry, I am not understanding your question, what didn't he report?