Are William Henry Bury and James Kelly overlooked?

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis,

As you point out, Deeming used the signature murder method of the ripper, which was lacking in Bury's case. Ellen Bury's death almost perfectly duplicated that of Rose Mylett. In both cases there was differing opinion as to whether they had hanged themselves, either accidentally or by suicide, or had been murdered by garrotting. The inquest into the death of Rose Mylett extended into January 1889, about the time that Bury decided to flee London.

As far as is known, William Bury didn't KILL anyone using a knife.

Deeming was reported by a witness to have been in the Whitechapel area on the night of the double event, and it was reported that he confessed to the last two of the ripper murders. IF he was the ripper, he would have been in a unique position to know which of the murders were the last two. While Bury eventually confessed to the murder of his wife, he never admitted to any involvement in the ripper murders. When the hangman wrote his memoirs he didn't even mention Bury, which is curious if any suspicion remained at that time that the latter was the ripper.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

There are many false confessions in this case, so I don't take Deeming's confession very seriously. However, his statement that he committed the last 2 Ripper murders is paradoxical, isn't it? If a person committed any Ripper murders, he would be the Ripper, which would mean that he committed all of the Ripper murders, not just the last 2, unless there were only 2. Any murders that he didn't commit wouldn't be Ripper murders, even if we think that they are.

Bury's hangman not mentioning Bury just means that his hangman didn't think that he was the Ripper. His hangman wouldn't necessarily know.

[John Wheat]

Reportedly James Berry did think Bury the Ripper perhaps he wanted to make his memoirs about his time as a hangman rather than sensationalising that he believed Bury was the Ripper.

[Marcel Prost]

So, there we have 3 individuals who IMO are far more likely to have been the Ripper than most of the mainstream populist choices.

Bachert has been written about a fair amount, and Hanslope has been researched by a handful of the Elite Ripper research professionals, including Debra Arif, who has more knowledge of Hanslope and Bachert than I ever could.
Debra, Jerry D and Belloc (to name a few) have done a lot of research on the likes of Hanslope and Bachert (respectively) and so none of the data I have stated in this message relating to those either Bachert of Hanslope can be attributed to me.

Marks Silverman is however someone who to my knowledge, has never been identifed as a person of interest in the case.
Discovering a (new) mad Jewish shop owner who is suddenly incarcerated as being insane and incurable is IMO a good place from which to start and he warrants a closer look.

Lots more to discover for sure.

Hi RD,

Thank you for taking the time to give me such a detailed and thoughtful reply. I really appreciate the effort you put into laying out the background on Bachert, Hanslope, and Silverman.

Although I’ve read many of the standard works over the years, I hadn’t come across those names in any depth, so your post has given me a lot to think about and some new directions to follow up. It’s always exciting to come across avenues of research that haven’t been exhausted by the mainstream literature, and I’m grateful for you sharing what you’ve discovered (and where to look further).

Much obliged for your help!

Cheers,
Marcel Prost

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

There are many false confessions in this case, so I don't take Deeming's confession very seriously. However, his statement that he committed the last 2 Ripper murders is paradoxical, isn't it? If a person committed any Ripper murders, he would be the Ripper, which would mean that he committed all of the Ripper murders, not just the last 2, unless there were only 2. Any murders that he didn't commit wouldn't be Ripper murders, even if we think that they are.

Hi Lewis,

Including the Torso Murders there were 15 Whitechapel murders. Macnaghten insisted that only 5 were attributable to the ripper, but that really is only his opinion. If he was correct, the majority was committed by someone else, or others. We don't know how many individuals were involved, nor the distribution of their crimes. If there was more than one, who earns the "Ripper" sobriquet?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Surely if Bury killed Mylett that increases his chances of being the Ripper though? Also Bury performed post mortem mutilation on Ellen Bury which Deeming did not do.

Hi John,

I'm not entirely convinced that the epithet of "the Ripper" wasn't a compilation of two or more perpetrators. While Bury did inflict post mortem mutilation, the wounds in extent were perfunctory compared to those visited upon Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, attacks that preceded that on Ellen Bury.

I don't believe that Bury was capable of the dissection room procedures exhibited on the above victims, but I doubt that Deeming was either, or most of the other "named" suspects. I think that these were performed by someone practised in the dissection room, probably at the scene but possibly after the event, the latter bringing the likes of Bury and Deeming back into contention.

I don't wish to disparage your choice, and the choice of others, of Bury as a prime suspect, but I'm just not seeing it.

Cheers, George

[Marcel Prost]

Hi Marcel, this thread was before your time so you may not have seen it.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...g-the-suspects

Hi Herlock,

I’ve just been through your thread and I have to say you did an astounding job with it. The scoring system you’ve devised looks very accurate to me—of course, as with anything like this, not everyone will agree with every placement, but that’s the nature of the subject.

Your list makes for a great starting point for anyone wanting a clear overview of the suspects, and as one would expect, it really highlights how Bury and Kelly stand out as among the most relevant names to consider.

This does not mean that one of them was the Ripper, but the odds clearly point in their direction.

Great work, and much appreciated!

Cheers,
Marcel Prost

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I’ve just been through your thread and I have to say you did an astounding job with it. The scoring system you’ve devised looks very accurate to me—of course, as with anything like this, not everyone will agree with every placement, but that’s the nature of the subject.

Your list makes for a great starting point for anyone wanting a clear overview of the suspects, and as one would expect, it really highlights how Bury and Kelly stand out as among the most relevant names to consider.

This does not mean that one of them was the Ripper, but the odds clearly point in their direction.

Great work, and much appreciated!

Cheers,
Marcel Prost

Thanks Marcel. It’s always subject for changes or additions.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Marcel


Yes, of course...


Albert Bachert is by far the most well known of the 3 persons I listed.
He has been well documented as a person of interest, and is particularly interesting in the fact that he spent much of his time actively trying to insert himself into the Ripper case.
By that I mean; over the course of the time span covering the series of murders, he claimed to have been the man specifically targeted by the Ripper's attention, including letters from the Ripper, graffiti outside his home, and even direct contact.
Some of what he said sounds fairly ludicrous, and it's fairly apparent that at the very least, he was a Ripper fantasist.
His various claims regarding the Ripper are too lengthy to list here, but they are plentiful and well documented.
In more recent times, it has been discovered that he was the acting head of the London branch of the Skeleton Army.
The Skeleton Army were a group who acted in direct opposition to the Salvationists (Booth's Salvation Army) The Skeleton Army often turned up at Salvationists marches in a bid to disrupt and cause chaos.
At this time, Bachert was referred to as the "General" (aka General Charrington) NOT to be confused with the social reformer Fred Charrington who was involved with the Temperance movement.
Interestingly, one of the alleged Ripper letters features a Skull and Crossbones along with a coffin.
The Skull and Crossbones being the recognised symbol of the Skeleton Army.



Henry Hanslope is also intriguing because he was proven to have a severe degree of violent tendencies towards women.
His wife, mother and his own daughter all being victims of his wrath.
He was accused of raping his own teenage daughter and when the case went to court, Hanslope defended himself and questioned his daughter on the stand; making her go over specific details and trying to make her out to be a liar.
That particular trial is well worth a read.
Hanslope was also an experienced actor; having played theatrical roles since his youth.
He was once apprehended trying to access a theatre music hall in the East End, by claiming he was a plain clothed police detective.
it was alleged that he often played the role of a detective and used it as a ruse to gain trust.
He was deceptive and violent.
But most fascinating of all; there's a record of Henry Hanslope having occupied a room at Miller's Court in 1888.
We can't be certain if he was there at the time of the murder, but he often labelled himself as a "Porter."
Incidentally, on the morning after the murder un Miller's Court, there was a man who left the court and was stopped by police. He told them he was a market Porter on his way to work and was allowed to go about his day.
The room opposite Kelly's room 13 (no. 7 IIRC) was occupied, but the individual who was staying in the room has never been identified.
If that person was Hanslope, then we have a man prone to violence against women living directly opposite the room in which Mary slept...and in full view of the "broken window."
With no signs of forced entry; make of that what you will.



Marks Silverman.... I identified Silverman as a new person on interest in the case a few years ago.
Marks was a Jew who ran a Chandler's shop from 6 Fashion Street; the same address given by one of the Canonical 5 victims.
Marks specialised in Walking Sticks but also made customised and personalised versions. He lived with his family and children at the address but for reasons unknown, I found him in the Jewish Asylum; him being labelled as "incurable."
It appears he was sectioned by his family, but the reasons for which appears to be relatively acute.
So we have a Jewish shop owner residing at the same address as the one given by a Ripper victim, and then is sent to the Jewish Asylum and labelled as "Incurable."
This label is particularly interesting because it implies mental incapacity and lunacy rather than a physical deterioration like Atrophy.
The surname Silverton, and that of his wife (nee Rubenstein IIRC) can both be linked to Berner Street, and specifically to Duffield's Yard.
A coincidence or a clue? Who knows.



So, there we have 3 individuals who IMO are far more likely to have been the Ripper than most of the mainstream populist choices.

Bachert has been written about a fair amount, and Hanslope has been researched by a handful of the Elite Ripper research professionals, including Debra Arif, who has more knowledge of Hanslope and Bachert than I ever could.
Debra, Jerry D and Belloc (to name a few) have done a lot of research on the likes of Hanslope and Bachert (respectively) and so none of the data I have stated in this message relating to those either Bachert of Hanslope can be attributed to me.

Marks Silverman is however someone who to my knowledge, has never been identifed as a person of interest in the case.
Discovering a (new) mad Jewish shop owner who is suddenly incarcerated as being insane and incurable is IMO a good place from which to start and he warrants a closer look.

Lots more to discover for sure.

hey rd
nice summary of these three and bury chapman and kelly (all in my top five with bury being highest)in your previous post. out of all of them i think kelly is most overlooked.

bachert, hanslope and silverman are intriguing characters but i would put them down as long shots, especially silverman.

Re hanslope. what is the evidence that has him living in millers court? If it could found with much certainty that he did, then that would be huge.

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

I'm not entirely convinced that the epithet of "the Ripper" wasn't a compilation of two or more perpetrators. While Bury did inflict post mortem mutilation, the wounds in extent were perfunctory compared to those visited upon Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, attacks that preceded that on Ellen Bury.

I don't believe that Bury was capable of the dissection room procedures exhibited on the above victims, but I doubt that Deeming was either, or most of the other "named" suspects. I think that these were performed by someone practised in the dissection room, probably at the scene but possibly after the event, the latter bringing the likes of Bury and Deeming back into contention.

I don't wish to disparage your choice, and the choice of others, of Bury as a prime suspect, but I'm just not seeing it.

Cheers, George

Hi George

Fair points. Obviously you don't see Bury as that likely as the Ripper but I do which is fine. Also I would say that the purportrater of the C5 with the possible exception of Liz Stride's murder would be Jack the Ripper.

Cheers John

[Belloc]

Re hanslope. what is the evidence that has him living in millers court? If it could found with much certainty that he did, then that would be huge.

Transcription from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary Admission and Discharge Register, February 20^th, 1888 to March 1^st, 1889.
(London Archives ref. STBG/WH/123/020, page 111)

Entry no.: 4757
Date: Saturday, Feby 9^th [1889]
Name: Hemslope Henry
Age: 40
Where Admitted from: 11 Miller Court
Married or Single: Married
Calling: Porter
Cause of Admission: Debility
Religion: Ch of E
By whose Order Admitted: McDonald
Time Admitted: 5.35 PM
Ward sent to: B.2
Settlement: 2 weeks
Date of Discharge: 18.2.89
Remarks: [None]

[The Rookie Detective]

Transcription from the Whitechapel Union Infirmary Admission and Discharge Register, February 20^th, 1888 to March 1^st, 1889.
(London Archives ref. STBG/WH/123/020, page 111)

Entry no.: 4757
Date: Saturday, Feby 9^th [1889]
Name: Hemslope Henry
Age: 40
Where Admitted from: 11 Miller Court
Married or Single: Married
Calling: Porter
Cause of Admission: Debility
Religion: Ch of E
By whose Order Admitted: McDonald
Time Admitted: 5.35 PM
Ward sent to: B.2
Settlement: 2 weeks
Date of Discharge: 18.2.89
Remarks: [None]

Thanks Belloc

You got there before me lol!

The reason this is significant is that room 11 was the room directly opposite room 13

(*note that I said room 7 from memory, but it was room 11 to which I was referring)


So, just to be clear....

Henry Hanslope stayed in the room opposite room 13 and would have had a clear view of Kelly's window.

He was in that room in February 1889, which is 3 months after the murder.

The question is; how long BEFORE this was he staying in room 11?

The person who occupied room 11 has never been identified.


However, there IS a newspaper article that I found which clearly states that the Porter who was stopped by police had come from the room opposite.

Henry Hanslope labelled himself a Porter.

As did the man who was stopped by the police on his way out of the court the morning after the murder.

So we have a man who rapes his own 13 year old daughter, threatens to murder his wife, and violently beats his own mother....possibly staying in the room opposite Kelly.

Henry also went around impersonating a police detective.

Kelly expressed concern that the Ripper would get her.


Perhaps her killer led her into a false sense of security?


"You'll be alright for what I've told you."

[Fiver]

Do we undervalue Bury and Kelly in Ripper studies because they don’t have the same mystique or mythology attached to them as Druitt, Maybrick, or Tumblety? Or are they rightly sidelined because their crimes don’t fit the Ripper’s known pattern strongly enough?

Curious to hear everyone’s thoughts.

There are many reasons they get less attention, one being that people are profiting from books and Youtube channels promoting other suspects. And many people's opinions are based only on these promoters or fictional portrayals.

Here's a recent poll about who the Ripper was.

Chapman comes in at 10th, Kelly comes in 22nd, Bury at 26th. For contrast Sickert (who has an alibi) is 7th, Prince Albert Edward Victor (who has an alibi) is 13th, Leather Apron (who has an alibi) is 17th, Ostrog (who has an alibi) is 21st, and Neill Cream (who has an alibi) is 23rd. Elderly recovering stroke victim Gull come in 18th.

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis,

Including the Torso Murders there were 15 Whitechapel murders. Macnaghten insisted that only 5 were attributable to the ripper, but that really is only his opinion. If he was correct, the majority was committed by someone else, or others. We don't know how many individuals were involved, nor the distribution of their crimes. If there was more than one, who earns the "Ripper" sobriquet?

Cheers, George

I would say that it's a near certainty that Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes were killed by the same man, and that man would be the Ripper, even if those were his only 3 murders.