A General Question

[Jon Guy]

No, no other witnesses.
Alfred Crow was alone with the body but didn`t get help (like Cross) as he thought it was a sleeping person, and Richardson claimed it wasn`t there when he was on the steps.

[Lechmere]

Can you present any conjectural or arguable issues about Crow or Morris to suggest guilt?

[Jon Guy]

They both possibly lied ?

[Lechmere]

You'll have to fo better than that. About what?

[Jon Guy]

Well, if any of them were the killer, they lied to the Police.

[Fisherman]

It's been understood since the contemporary investigation that all of the crimes were committed in a very small geograhical area. Therefore, anyone who's route to ANYWHERE took them close to any ONE of the murder sites falls under suspicion.

If it was that easy, Patrick! Alas, a "very small geographical area" (and it is not THAT small!) is not equivalent to all people within in walking the same routes.

Take a look at a map, covering Bucks Row and Dorset Street plus the "very small geographic area" inbetween these sites. Take out a pencil and draw a line along Hanbury Street, then cut down to Dorset Street as if you were shooting for Broad Street.

Then go back to Bucks Row, follow the line you´ve drawn and take a look at how many street intersections the killer would have passed before reaching Dorset Street. You will find around thirty of them. At each and every intersection, the killer had a choice of two or three streets. Purely statistically, that means that there was one chance in thirty that the killer would end up in Dorset Street after having left Bucks Row.

The exact same thing applies to all of the murder sites along Old Montague Street and Hanbury Street. The killer had a whole bunch of options to choose from in each intersection, but the options he chose took him to the murder spots we know of.

The other - apparently quite few - men that were moving in the streets at that same hour of night, were faced with the same thing - they all had multiple choices of roads to walk, and they will all have had their own paths, differing from other peoples´ paths to a smaller or larger degree.

Of the people who had reason to be in this "very small geographic area", not many would have had reason to walk Hanbury Street or Old Montague Street. It would predispose a working place situated inbetween where these streets joined Bishopsgate, and it would also more or less predispose that they came by Bucks Row.

And now we are certainly dealing with a very small fraction of people. I don´t think it can be excluded that we at the relevant hour only have just the one man having been able to choose between Old Montague Street and Hanbury Street and still being able to arrive at his working place at the approximate same hour, regardless of what choice he made.

Otherwise, we must have had somebody else who lived east of the Brady Street/Bucks Row junction, who worked south of the Hanbury Street outlet to Bishopsgate and north of the Old Montague Street outlet to the same street, and who was required to be at work at a time that took him into Bucks Row at 3.45.

Or somebody who just chanced upon each and every one of the sites - and who did it in a manner that pinpointed Lechmeres logical working treks each and every time ...

All the best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Come on Jon you must be able to do better than that.
I presume you think they are equally good suspects or people of interest as Lechmere.
Just take Morris - how did he lie? How did he kill Eddowes? Did he also kill Stride? What did he lie about? Is there any corroboration to suggest he lied about anything?

[Fisherman]

Come on Jon you must be able to do better than that.
I presume you think they are equally good suspects or people of interest as Lechmere.
Just take Morris - how did he lie? How did he kill Eddowes? Did he also kill Stride? What did he lie about? Is there any corroboration to suggest he lied about anything?

I´ve heard it rumoured that there is an obscure interview with him somewhere, where he claims that "126 years from now, a man who calls himself Jon Guy will not waste other people´s time on a forum called Casebook".

Apparently, Morris was a psychic. AND a liar.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

I'm guessing Crow did likewise

[Fisherman]

I'm guessing Crow did likewise

Yes, he was the crow-wr... sorry, co-writer of that interview!

Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

I´ve heard it rumoured that there is an obscure interview with him somewhere, where he claims that "126 years from now, a man who calls himself Jon Guy will not waste other people´s time on a forum called Casebook".

Apparently, Morris was a psychic. AND a liar.

Which paper was that George Morris quote from ?
The one I`ve seen states " 126 years from now, two guys will not waste other people`s time on a forum called Casebook"

[Bridewell]

Man leaves for work. En route to work man finds woman's body. Man waits near body until another man arrives and then points out body to other man. Both men go in search of a policeman. Man makes witness statement. Man gives evidence at inquest. About 100 years later someone suggest that this man (who for more than a century has been regarded as a witness only) could conceivably have killed the woman himself.

Personally I would categorise this man under the heading of witness as there is nothing to prevent the possibility of him being the killer being postulated by those who wish to do so under that heading. If we want to find a Cross/Lechmere thread we know where it will be. There's only so much space on a server. Why go in for unnecessary duplication?

[Jon Guy]

Come on Jon you must be able to do better than that.
I presume you think they are equally good suspects or people of interest as Lechmere.
Just take Morris - how did he lie? How did he kill Eddowes? Did he also kill Stride? What did he lie about? Is there any corroboration to suggest he lied about anything?

No, Ed, like Cross, they`re joke suspects, except the people I mentioned were alone with the body (but without any witnesses to back up their story).

Alfred "The" Crow, the young man who lived alone in the heart of the district and worked nights.

Re: George Morris, you will be aware of this dissertation:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-cats-cradle.html#highlight

[Fisherman]

Which paper was that George Morris quote from ?
The one I`ve seen states " 126 years from now, two guys will not waste other people`s time on a forum called Casebook"

It was from the "Daily Psychic" of October the 32:nd 1888, Jon. I believe yours is from "Truth Magazine" of the very same date. He knew how to shake down the contemporary press, Morris!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Man leaves for work. En route to work man finds woman's body. Man waits near body until another man arrives and then points out body to other man. Both men go in search of a policeman. Man makes witness statement. Man gives evidence at inquest. About 100 years later someone suggest that this man (who for more than a century has been regarded as a witness only) could conceivably have killed the woman himself.

Man leaves for work on a number of other days. Interestingly, more dead bodies surface along his working routes. Man gives another name than his real one at the inquest after the first murder. Man misinforms PC on the murder night. Man hears excellently in an east-westernly direction but is nigh on deaf in a west-easternly ditto. Man walks invisibly under lights in Bath street. Man has a mother to visit, and a daughter. Man has another dead body turning up on the road to his mother.

Another man tries, 126 years on, to claim that nothing of this is suggestive of anything sinister. Man is wrong.

All the best,
Fisherman