For those who don't believe in "JTR"

[Cogidubnus]

Acknowledgement

I have to say here that both Lynn and Debs were among the first people who corresponded with me following my first joining Casebook.

They have since been, when appropriate, more than generous with their time, and in their different ways have genuinely helped me along the way. Neither have attempted to convert me to a particular view, but both have generously provided access to research they've conducted.

I'm not a particularly "reach out and grab" sort of person, (frankly the concept embarasses me), but I do feel that it would be wrong of me not to acknowledge this in some sort of fashion...ok shall we return now, as David would doubtless wish, to our moutons?

Dave

[Debra A]

So you've still not come round to my 'Jem the Ripper' theory, Dave? I'm definitely not sending more money!
Seriously though-thanks.

[GUT]

G'day Dave

I have to say here that both Lynn and Debs were among the first people who corresponded with me following my first joining Casebook.

They have since been, when appropriate, more than generous with their time, and in their different ways have genuinely helped me along the way. Neither have attempted to convert me to a particular view, but both have generously provided access to research they've conducted.

I'm not a particularly "reach out and grab" sort of person, (frankly the concept embarasses me), but I do feel that it would be wrong of me not to acknowledge this in some sort of fashion...ok shall we return now, as David would doubtless wish, to our moutons?

Dave

Must agree that they are unstinting with their information.

[DVV]

Must agree that they are unstinting with their information.

Hi Gut,

Yes, two great posters.

But Debs is greater than anyone here.

Glups !

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Dave. Thanks for the nice words.

Debs does the research, I read the colour supplements--like Harry "Snapper" Organs. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

Deb never ceases to amaze me with some of the things she finds.

[Harry D]

I don't think anyone was interested in killing prostitutes.

Please expand on that, Lynn.

Do you mean that the killer(s) didn't have a grudge against prozzies, per se? They were just easy prey?

Likewise, I have little doubt that Kate's killer was a copycat killer who deliberately tried (and failed) to reproduce the first two killings.

What about it was considered a failure, Lynn, since the police took her for a Ripper victim?

"MJK" is an enigma to all. Perhaps I could say something intelligent if I knew whom she were.

What would you need to know about MJK that you don't already know about the other victims?

Are we allowed to throw in for discussion 'torso murders' that cross the line?

Hello, Debra. You can include whatever murders you wish if they are relevant to your argument. What exactly are you getting at?

[Debra A]

Hello, Debra. You can include whatever murders you wish if they are relevant to your argument. What exactly are you getting at?

No argument here, Harry. Just canvassing opinion. The thing that most many say that makes the Whitechapel murders unique is the mutilation (abdominal) and targetting of the uterus and other organs for removal in a victim being a prostitute, yes? Yet most would not include any of the torso murders as part of the series. So, was there another killer at large in London capable of similar mutilation and interested in the same organs as JTR? Elizabeth Jackson's murder appears to have a lot of similarities ( as I described) and the Whitehall torso also had her uterus missing.

[Lechmere]

In my opinion we should be open minded about including all unsolved murders - or vicious type attacks - on females of a similar age and class in the London area fifteen years or so either side of 1888.

[Harry D]

No argument here, Harry. Just canvassing opinion. The thing that most many say that makes the Whitechapel murders unique is the mutilation (abdominal) and targetting of the uterus and other organs for removal in a victim being a prostitute, yes? Yet most would not include any of the torso murders as part of the series. So, was there another killer at large in London capable of similar mutilation and interested in the same organs as JTR? Elizabeth Jackson's murder appears to have a lot of similarities ( as I described) and the Whitehall torso also had her uterus missing.

Hello Debra. It's interesting how much the Thames Torso Murders are overshadowed by the Ripper. I knew practically nothing about them until I began frequenting these forums. However, while both series of murders were barbarous acts of mutilation against women, I think they were clearly different operators. Jack confined himself to a localized area, struck in the open (with one exception), did as much evisceration as possible, then slipped back into the shadows. The Thames Torso Killer must have had somewhere private where was able to inflict the kind of torture and butchery upon his victims and a means of transporting them.

What are the chances that a confined area like Whitechapel happened to have more than one slasher with Jack's MO in the district working simultaneously?

[Wickerman]

There are those who say the killer would be a fool to carry a piece of bloody apron through the streets, yet here we have someone carrying a woman's torso.

[John Wheat]

However, while both series of murders were barbarous acts of mutilation against women, I think they were clearly different operators. Jack confined himself to a localized area, struck in the open (with one exception), did as much evisceration as possible, then slipped back into the shadows. The Thames Torso Killer must have had somewhere private where was able to inflict the kind of torture and butchery upon his victims and a means of transporting them.

To Harry

I agree with what you are saying about Jack and the The Thames Torso Killer being different killers. However I question wether The Thames Torso Killer murdered his victims either by decapitation or by cutting there throats before dismemberment and therefore wether torture was the reason for dismemberment or not.

Cheers John

[Debra A]

Hello Debra. It's interesting how much the Thames Torso Murders are overshadowed by the Ripper. I knew practically nothing about them until I began frequenting these forums. However, while both series of murders were barbarous acts of mutilation against women, I think they were clearly different operators. Jack confined himself to a localized area, struck in the open (with one exception), did as much evisceration as possible, then slipped back into the shadows. The Thames Torso Killer must have had somewhere private where was able to inflict the kind of torture and butchery upon his victims and a means of transporting them.

What are the chances that a confined area like Whitechapel happened to have more than one slasher with Jack's MO in the district working simultaneously?

Hi Harry,
But you would class the torso as a series despite differences in the way they were dismembered?
Torture?!

[Cogidubnus]

So we're saying, are we, that there were two entirely separate serial killers floating around in London between, at least, say 1888 and 1889?

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Indeed Dave, and that is if we assume all the Whitechapel Murders, from Tabram to Coles, are applied to the same hand. If not then, three killers?, four,...five?
We're playing right into Lynn's hands with this....