For those who don't believe in "JTR"

[Harry D]

Could you please succinctly explain your reasons for believing so?

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Harry

No, I don't believe in 'JtR' - I believe in the Whitechapel murderer, the killer of ten women in the East End, between 1888 - 1891

JTR is the name given on a hoax letter sent to the Central news agency. The author of the letter is extremely unlikely to be the killer of the women in Whitechapel, so attempting to study the killings through this 'ripper' view point is fundamentally flawed. The way we think is coloured by the terms we use to understand, and to continue to look at these murders through this particular lens - the whole concept of 'Jack the Ripper', and thereby dividing up the murders in to the different groups of ripper killings, non-ripper killings and interrupted ripper killings is largely an exercise in futility.

what would an interrupted non-ripper killing look like anyway ?

[lynn cates]

What proposition asserted?

Hello Harry. Interesting question.

I presume that, before a coherent answer could be given to this, one would need to spell out, precisely, the meaning of "JTR."

So, what precisely does "JTR" refer to?

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Harry,

If you want Lynn to reply, you've to write a 375p treatise on the JtR concept, first.
And don't forget the footnotes.

Good luck

[lynn cates]

Discourse on Method

Hello David. Thanks.

You're bloody well right. And don't forget a full proof demonstrating the reality of the external material world. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Harry D]

Hello gents,

Thanks for indulging me.

By 'JTR' I'm not talking about the media invention cooked up by the press. I'm referring specifically to a lone killer who murdered prostitutes in Whitechapel. There seems to be a fringe group who believe that the murders weren't linked, and I'm not only talking in regards to the Stride controversy.

I'd like for people to explain, in so many words, why they believe the majority of these murders were not carried out by the same hand? I have a hard time buying that there were two (or more) overlapping killers at the same time who all had a penchant for butchering the local prostitutes, and all of whom had similar MOs. Now's your chance to make me a believer.

[DVV]

Hello David.
And don't forget a full proof demonstrating the reality of the external material world. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

I know it's somewhere in the library of Babel, Lynn.
Give me time.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

what really happened

Hello Harry. Thanks.

Before beginning, permit me to address your final sentence. I have qualms about converting another to my point of view. I would never try that. However, I am delighted to talk about whatever I happen to believe, and why.

First, notice how you phrase your reaction.

"I have a hard time buying that there were two (or more) overlapping killers at the same time who all had a penchant for butchering the local prostitutes, and all of whom had similar MOs."

It sounds like you are referring to two serial killers, both bent on killing prostitutes. Put THAT way, I, too, cannot buy it.

And that because:

1. I don't think there were ANY serial killers in Whitechapel in 1888.

and

2. I don't think anyone was interested in killing prostitutes.

(I assume we are limiting our discussion to the C5. Correct me if I am wrong.)

Perhaps, the question before us, then, is How many of the C5 were killed by the same hand?

I have no doubt, whatsoever, that Polly and Annie were killed by the same hand and that the hand was one belonging to one of the wandering lunatics in Whitechapel--most likely, Jacob Isenschmid.

Likewise, I have little doubt that Kate's killer was a copycat killer who deliberately tried (and failed) to reproduce the first two killings.

(I believe you wished to omit discussion of the Stride killing. Happy to oblige.)

"MJK" is an enigma to all. Perhaps I could say something intelligent if I knew whom she were. But my research involves resettled witnesses and Sir Ed Jenkinson's network of spies--which included barmaids.

Happy to expand where desired.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

I have qualms about converting another to my point of view. I would never try that.
LC

With a rate of 200 posts per month ?
Oh my dear Lynn, you're sure kidding - and I like that.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

answer

Hello David. Thanks.

Well, as the saying goes, I have much to answer for. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Reaction without action.
Wait....would it be epistemological ?

Hope not, Lynn, but I'm quite sure of.

[Debra A]

Are we allowed to throw in for discussion 'torso murders' that cross the line?
Elizabeth Jackson was a homeless prostitute in her 20s who has some similarities to some of the women murdered in Whitechapel.
Her heart was missing and never found (could have been taken as a trophy? or equally lost in the Thames) flaps of skin were removed from her abdomen as in the Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly murders and her uterus was 'operated on' after her death.

[lynn cates]

epistemology

Hello David. Thanks.

Well, if we KNOW it. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

O P

Hello Debs. I'd better let Harry answer that one.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Debs...............