2 Rippers

[Tom_Wescott]

Great post Tom.

The fact that Emma Smith was set upon by a group of at least 3 men, should immediately rule her out as a potential Ripper suspect.

However, she still remains in the discussion to this day, and is of course included in a total of 11 potential Ripper victims.

This makes little sense, unless the Ripper was a member of the group of men who attacked Emma, or the Ripper was more than one man; ergo, a gang in it's entirety.

In other words; to even include Emma Smith in the discussion, it then rules out the Ripper having been a solitary killer.

We can also add Rose Mylett to that list; the known evidence implying there were 2 men involved in her untimely demise.

Emma Smith
Emily Horsnell
Rose Mylett
Martha Tabram (perhaps to a lesser extent)

It's also rather intriguing how at least 3 of these women all resided in George Street within yards of each other and at least 2 of them at the same address.

Hi RD. I don't think it follows that Rose Mylett is ruled in if we assume (for the sake of argument) that Emma Smith is ruled in. The two sailors seen with Mylett, IIRC, was hours before her death. The idea is that the East End in the 1880s was a different time then even fifty or sixty years later in that criminals often ran in groups and it's not impossible that one or two of the Emma Smith attackers developed an already burgeoning taste for the violence and escalated to Tabram. After all, the women were murdered only yards apart and their victimology was identical. Tabram had a 'deal of blood between her legs' and I'd wager that was from the dagger-like instrument being inserted into her, ala Smith.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom,

I have a different interpretation as to what Phillips was implying. The Casebook entry for McKenzie has Phillip's statement as:

After careful and long deliberation, I cannot satisfy myself, on purely Anatomical and professional grounds that the perpetrator of all the "Wh Ch. murders" is our man. I am on the contrary impelled to a contrary conclusion in this noting the mode of procedure and the character of the mutilations and judging of motive in connection with the latter.

I do not here enter into the comparison of the cases neither do I take into account what I admit may be almost conclusive evidence in favour of the one man theory if all the surrounding circumstances and other evidence are considered, holding it as my duty to report on the P.M. appearances and express an opinion only on Professional grounds, based upon my own observation.

I interpret Phillips as saying that while on purely medical evidence he can not say that all the Whitechapel murders were by the same hand, based on the mode of procedure, the mutilations and the motive he would conclude to the contrary. He adds that the evidence is almost conclusive that there was a single perpetrator, but it was his duty to report on purely medical grounds.

Can you expand on your interpretation please?

Cheers, George

Hi George. That's interesting. I was not aware that a Casebook transcription of Phillips had him writing 'our man'. I was going by the version transcribed by Stewart Evans and Keith Skinner. I'd say the context of what follows would indicate 'one man' is the correct transcription. Phillips most likely also discounted Eddowes and probably Kelly as Ripper victims, so he did not see his views as aligning with the police. I couldn't imagine him writing 'our man' but since I'm not looking at his handwritten notes, I can't say for sure. I believe he is simply saying that he doesn't think - based solely upon what he's viewed on his post mortem table - that all the Whitechapel murders were committed by the same hand. But he's aware that other evidence not coming under his immediate attention might force the conclusion that they were. After I finish writing this post, though, I'm going to reread his statement with your interpretation in mind.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John Wheat]

How likely is it that JtR was actually 2 people? Is there any evidence that there were 2 people working together?

It's extremely unlikely. There is no evidence whatsoever that JTR was two people.

[GBinOz]

Hi George. That's interesting. I was not aware that a Casebook transcription of Phillips had him writing 'our man'. I was going by the version transcribed by Stewart Evans and Keith Skinner. I'd say the context of what follows would indicate 'one man' is the correct transcription. Phillips most likely also discounted Eddowes and probably Kelly as Ripper victims, so he did not see his views as aligning with the police. I couldn't imagine him writing 'our man' but since I'm not looking at his handwritten notes, I can't say for sure. I believe he is simply saying that he doesn't think - based solely upon what he's viewed on his post mortem table - that all the Whitechapel murders were committed by the same hand. But he's aware that other evidence not coming under his immediate attention might force the conclusion that they were. After I finish writing this post, though, I'm going to reread his statement with your interpretation in mind.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

While I drew attention to the one/our difference in transcription, I'm not certain that there is a significant difference in the intent of his statement. I read your initial post as implying that Phillips thought there was more than one perpetrator, while I read his statement as qualifying his medical opinion with the caveat that the surrounding evidence indicated that there may have been one only.

I find it interesting that you suggest that Phillips may have discounted Eddowes and Kelly as ripper victims. On the basis of medical opinion I am inclined to accept the possibility that Eddowes and Kelly were by a different hand than Nichols and Chapman. I appreciate that I am in a minority in this inclination.

Cheers, George

[seanr]

I don't think there is a single person who argues that all of the murders in the Whitechapel Murders file were committed by the same perpertrator. Each of the killers involved was more likely to have been men, rather than women. It's most likely that there were multiple men involved in these crimes.

The attitudes towards vulnerable women in the society at the time, could have contributed to the local criminals having an extremely casual attitude towards these women's safety, and there is evidence of just that.


This image purports to be a group of young hoodlums from 1910 on Brick Lane, sourced from https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/post/bethnal-green-tales. I haven't been able to indepently verify the source, but one can easily see young men carrying such fearsome weapons committing the most appalling offences.

There's really some excellent research there from Rich Edmunds. It includes a story from July/ August 1923 where 'Dodger' Mullins visited the pub where one 'Mad Patsy' O'Boyle a former boxer was working. Mullins was there with a group of men, who proceeded to smash the place up and fight with Mr O'Boyle, former British Welterweight and Middleweight Champion. The report from Dundee Evening Telegraph - Wednesday 01 August 1923 quoted there, mentions the detail that 'Dodger' Mullins had gone to the pub to pass a message from Pedlar Palmer. Pedlar Palmer being a former World Bantam Weight Champion, small world, huh!
You may recall Pedlar Palmer as the boxer who was backed by a well known East End figure named John McCarthy, a man once described as the Maitre d'Hote of the Hotels de Doss. Palmer went on, in later years, to admit the fight where he had been backed by Mr McCarthy had been fixed. Small world, huh!
'Dodger' Mullins was an associate of a man named Edward Emanuel, who in this era was dominating the London Criminal Underworld in partnership with the Sabini Racecourse Gang. The Sabini gang was led by a well known criminal named Darby Sabini. Darby Sabini had also had a career as a boxer as a younger man (I wonder where most of his fight appearances were...). He was trained by a man named Dan Sullivan, who rose up to be the manager of the Ring boxing club (alongside the owner Bella Burge) in Blackfriars having been orginally hired by John McCarthy (the same one) and Dick Burge, a former boxer whose career is plagued with rumours of fixed fights and he was also a convicted fraudster. Dick Burge described himself on a number of occasions as the manager of one Marie Lloyd, who Bella Burge nee Orchard had lived with for a time. Small world, huh!

Anyway, back to lurking.