So would he have run?

[Cogidubnus]

Not if I was just walking to work, no....but you seem to see things differently...

[drstrange169]

Hello Lechmere,


"This shows a close up of the yard and the wall that separates the building and entrance from the yard."

And by that reasoning, this shows a wall that separates an entrance in Eldon Street on the same map.

[drstrange169]

... except it isn't;-)

[drstrange169]

Hello Lechmere,

"I've measured the various northern routes ... and they all come up about 100 yards longer than he Old Montague Street route ..."

My measurements show the Old Montague Street longer by roughly 100 yards. If there was an entrance in Appold Street the difference would have been far more significant.

As it is, whoever is right, it's immaterial. Cross/Lechmere didn't have our access to the internet and I'm guessing he didn't waste his money on old maps like us. A paltry distance of 100 yards would mean nothing to him.

The fact is he IS recorded as going down Hanbury Street. He is NEVER recorded as going down Old Montague, even though it would have been an excellent excuse to get away from Paul.

And the overwhelming fact remains also remains, that Hanbury was a far safer route.

[drstrange169]

"It is a fairly safe bet that he would have been familiar with the area encompassed between Doveton Street, Broad Street and the James Street and Mary Ann Street areas, down to Betts Street ..."

It's certainly a fairly safe bet he knew all those streets as he lived or worked in them. Anything else is just a guess.

[drstrange169]

"... if a series of dead bodies started appearing down your shortest route ..."

Is two a series? And which exactly is the shortest route and is it short enough to be meaningful?


"... if you were found next to one of the bodies ..."

You mean, if you went out of your way to raise the alarm after discovering a possibly unconscious or dead body.


"... you gave Caraxticus as your name ..."

And you were known by that name and you also gave your correct address and work place.


"... the first policeman you met said you said one thing while you claimed to say another ..."

And your version was backed up by an independent witness. And that independant witness questioned the integrity of the policeman.


"... would you expect to come under suspicion?"

Not really:-)

It's all a matter of spin. My version states the known facts, yours interprets them.

[Fisherman]

Fish, I note that you started this topic raised on a "General Suspect Discussion" board. Was it to save time?

Saving time is not what there boards are about, Gareth - hadn´t you noticed? Out here, we mostly WASTE time.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello Fisherman,

" ... Lechmere grew up very close to Old Montague Street..."
[/B][/I]
Of course these judgements are relative, but I would strongly disagree. The addresses were all the other side of Whitechapel Road and the only one that "I" would describe as vaguely close would be Sion Square and Cross/Lechmere was very young then and so was unlikely to have known Old Montague Street. As he grew up his family moved further and further away.

Lechmere was around ten when he lived in Sion Square. And that is an age when you explore. And Old Montague Street was a stiff hundred yards away, so I don´t think he would have been totally unaquainted with it.
Besides, no matter how we cut things, ALL of his pre-Doveton Street addresses were always very much closer to Old Montague Street than to Hanbury Street.

To top things off, much as Sion Square WAS on the other side of Whitechapel Road, the latter WAS a road and not a brick wall. And it was not trafficed heavily by fierce Ferraris - you could cross it if you felt like it...

Just as you say, judgements will be relative. The Old Montague Street/Hanbury Street juxtaposition will however not. If it was one street he was always nearer to, it was the former.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello Lechmere,


"This shows a close up of the yard and the wall that separates the building and entrance from the yard."

And by that reasoning, this shows a wall that separates an entrance in Eldon Street on the same map.

One could say that Edwards reasoning on two levels, Dr Strange. We can all see that there is an opening in the pavement lading into the building, and we know that there were two levels involved, since the Pickfords yard and goods depot was situated on the lower level.

The wall we can see was obviously there, but not on the low level.

Up at the covered tank, however - were there two levels too?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

"... if a series of dead bodies started appearing down your shortest route ..."
Is two a series? And which exactly is the shortest route and is it short enough to be meaningful?
That wasn’t the question I asked – in fact there were three b the time of the Nichols murder.
A things stand – at the state of play of our current knowledge – it was the shortest route. The meaningful thing about this is that it was a very plausible route for him to take at roughly the time the murders took place. Why is there the basic denial about the relevance of this? The resistance, that amounts to a phobia to say ‘OK he may well have taken that route on the nights in question’. Which other suspect can even be placed on the streets anywhere near at the relevant time?

"... if you were found next to one of the bodies ..."
You mean, if you went out of your way to raise the alarm after discovering a possibly unconscious or dead body.
Again, that’s not what I asked.
But now you mention it, who went out of his way to raise the alarm after discovering a possibly dead or unconscious body? Charles Lechmere didn’t, unless you mean he walked back a few yards and spoke to Paul, and then they both left the body and went to work – not out of their way at all, and then spoke to Mizen who they bumped into and certainly raised no alarm with him. Is that what you regard as going out of ones way and raising the alarm?

"... you gave Caraxticus as your name ..."
And you were known by that name and you also gave your correct address and work place.
Again not what I asked.
You have no idea whether he was known by that name. Just brushing aside the name swap and not being able to fathom out any potential reason why a guilty party might have given a false name but genuine address and workplace to would be foolhardy in a genuine investigation to say the least.

"... the first policeman you met said you said one thing while you claimed to say another ..."
And your version was backed up by an independent witness. And that independant witness questioned the integrity of the policeman.
Yet again not what I asked.
Yet again it wasn’t quite as simple as your picture. You have an independent witness who gave two versions of what was happened, and who was clearly anti police and so quite possibly prone to not casting Mizen in a good light.

"... would you expect to come under suspicion?"
Not really:-)
I’m glad you are not in the police as you would never catch anyway and believe what everyone says and think everyone is innocent.

It's all a matter of spin. My version states the known facts, yours interprets them.
No you put an innocent spin and interpreted the facts to make Lechmere innocent. Is that what a policeman, for example, would be expected to do?

Regarding the Appold Street entrance – various maps do show the walls in lighter colours where there are entrances – such as at Eldon Street. Eldon Street was indisputably the entrance – you even picture what would have been cart entrances.
In any case the Appold Street entrance would take someone to the boundary of Broad Street Station not to the Goods depot. From the Appold entrance he would have had to negotiate his way through the station to get to the goods depot.
It remains that the simplest, shortest and easiest way to get to his workplace would have been down Old Montague Street.
You have no idea whether it was a more dangerous route. Booth’s colour codes were an indication of poverty not crime. Unless you also subscribe to his view that poverty equals crime and danger.
Lechmere didn’t flap after supposedly seeing a body lying in the street for the first time and then being approached from behind by a man (unlike Paul who hadn’t even seen the body at that point). So he didn’t seem to be a worrier.

Incidentally the final part of his route would have been the same as he took when he lived at James Street

[Lechmere]

I just re-measured the routes and the Old Montague Street route is a good 100 yards shorter than any northern route.
For someone coming back from work it has a lot more logic to it - emergi0g from Liverpool Street into Bishopsgate you just walk straight across into Devonshire Street.
Apart from the dog leg of Harrow Alley it is a straight route.
When he lived at James Street (until mid June 1888) his route may well have taken him down Devonshire Street - the last quarter of the route would probably have been the same.

But the specifics do not actually matter. For there to be a case it merely has to be shown that the Old Montague Street was a plausible route for him to take. And it clearly was.

[Ben]

I just re-measured the routes and the Old Montague Street route is a good 100 yards shorter than any northern route.

And I just jumped into my time machine and found out it was Hutchinson.

Seriously though, Lechmere, you're quite wrong about Old Montague Street being the shortest route.

It just wasn't.

The shortest route went Hanbury Street – Spelman St – Booth St – Princelet St – Wilkes St – Fournier St – Commercial St – Dorset St – Raven Row – Whitegate St – Bishopsgate St, and then Skinner Street through to Pickfords.

I here credit the sterling efforts of Frank in confirming that which I'd long suspected - that Cross probably cut through the terminus building, thus absolving him of the need to enter Broad Street from the south, as the dangerous, longer Old Montague Street route demanded.

For there to be a case it merely has to be shown that the Old Montague Street was a plausible route for him to take.

Yes, this is better.

Say that next time.

It's not impossible that he took Old Montague Street on occasion, I agree, but given that his only known route to work took him onto Hanbury Street, the parsimonious assumption is that this was the route he always took. It was the quickest and the safest, on balance. We just need to be mindful that these points are acknowledged; otherwise "factoids" take root, such as the erroneous claim that he can "be linked to all crime scenes", including Mitre Square and George Yard, which he certainly can't be, according to any reliable evidence.

Regards,
Ben

[drstrange169]

Hello Lechmere,


I think Ben has covered basically what I wanted to say, but ...;-)


That Cross/Lechmere went to work along Hanbury Street is a unbiased researchable fact.

Against that, to fit a wanted outcome, "could have" "plausible" and "possibilities" are being proposed. That's interesting stuff, but it's all just speculation without a shred of actual evidence and needs to be recognized as such.



"... Booth’s colour codes were an indication of poverty not crime"


Booth's colour code, on black,"Very poor, lowest class ... Vicious, semi-criminal."(my emphasis)

[drstrange169]

Hello Fisherman,

"We can all see that there is an opening in the pavement lading into the building, and we know that there were two levels involved, since the Pickfords yard and goods depot was situated on the lower level.
The wall we can see was obviously there, but not on the low level."

That's great speculation, but yet again the facts don't support it.

The two entrances next to my circled one, have no "wall" marking yet were also part of a two level building, as the photographs clearly show.

[drstrange169]

I've amassed so many photos of the Broad Street goods yard that I'd clog up casebook if I post too many more. So I'll make these next few my last.

This is from the 1980's note the "doorways" towards Appold Street.
(big circle)

Above that is Skinner Street.
(small circle)

Apparently, there was a Stable between there and Primrose. I discovered this from a post at a Broad Street site from a guy whose grandfather was killed in an accident there in 1910.