So would he have run?

[Wickerman]

But according to those who study to defend Hutchinson, all a nocturnal loiterer needed to say, if collared by a copper, was that he was sauntering around in the wee hours because he couldn't get into his lodgings, and didn't want to crash in a doorway or stairwell because that's too naughty. If that isn't taxing on the oesophagus, I don't know what is.

Nevertheless Ben, it is a fact.
Just treat it like all the other facts you don't like, just ignore it.

[FrankO]

I can't believe, and Frank should burn his map, if h's a gentleman.

So, you think I should get rid of the map containing the example below too, David?

[Lechmere]

To facilitate measuring distances here is the entrance to Broad Street Goods Station on Eldon Street...

[Lechmere]

Or here

[Fisherman]

Responding is usually dependent on there being a sensible point worth responding to.

That´s true - and there´s nothing much of that commodity in Ben´s post, sadly.

I think that opening up by demanding evidence that a carman with twenty years of experience would know his way around the East End streets is very symptomatic for the level of understanding that is applied: a very poor and limited one.

If I had said that a specific heart surgeon would know how to perform a heart operation on a specific patient, it would be equally wise to say that I have no evidence for it.

If I had said that a specific car repair man would be able to repair a specific car, it would be just as gifted to say that I could not prove it.

If I had said that a specific oceanograph would be able to describe a certain part of an ocean, it would be as useful to point out that I could not prove that either.

In the (extremely) short perspective, it is of course correct to say that I do not have the evidence attaching to the specific cases. But most people would realize that I bank on a heart surgeon being trained in heart surgery - it is his area of expertise.
Equally, a car repair man´s area of expertise is repairing cars, and an oceanograph is very knowledgeable about oceans - it is HIS area of expertise.

So let´s ask ourselves: What on earth could be a carman´s area of expertise? Could it perhaps be to know the streets of the town where he works?

I would suggest that this is exactly where a carman´s area of expertise lies.

Could it also be that his knowledge abouyt these streets will increase with every year of service he has under his belt? Yes, that is exactly so.

Would it be fair to propose that if he had grown up in the area at hand before he became a carman in the area at han, he would be even more prone to be an expert as regards the streets of that area. Strangely, yes - there seems to be such a connection.

So, in fact, all we know about this carman with twenty years of working as a carman behind him and a decade of experience of the area, generally speaking, tells us that he would be extremely well aquainted with the streets in that area.

And still, this is contested, apparently? It´s mindboggling.

Demanding evidence (A masters degree in streetology? A signed reference from the Pickfords managers, saying that Lechmere actually did learn what all carmen learnt?) in such a case is ridiculous, useless, counterproductive and a total letdown of the minimum standard we must demand from our fellow posters.

So yes, I agree - there are no sensible points to answer to in the post.

All the best,
Fisherman

[drstrange169]

I'm talking in the dark here, as I really don't know, but it appears from the info that I've found, that the entrance the horse carts went in an out of was in Finsbury Avenue.

If this is correct, then it would make sense that Cross/Lechmere would have taken the type of route I've described, approaching via Spital Sq and on through either Primrose or Skinner.

Her are two locations for the entrance I've identified so far.

[drstrange169]

One more map.

This is from the 1888 District Railways Guide.
It shows just how straightforward the route was.

[Lechmere]

Dr Strange - that is a very interesting aeriel photo - where did it come from?
This is an unadorned map of the relevant area from the 1894 Ordnance Survey.

Here is a marked up one.

Finsbury Avenue was pedestrianized as can be seen by the line of the pavements which I have marked in red.
This means there cannot have been a cart entrance at the apex marked on Dr Strange's map (red circle)
The gap in the wall as seen in the aerial photo is actually a little further down the road (Green circle) and is in the middle of a building. I would suggest that most likely it is later break in the wall to allow the demolished (and at that time undeveloped) goods station to be used as a car park.

[Lechmere]

Here is an earlier map - from 1879 - that shows that Finsbury Avenue was pedestrianized then as well.
It also shows the boundary wall as being unbroken. To prevent theft these yards tended to have limited access points. Although from court papers it seemed easy enough to get into the complex, they checked people coming out.

[drstrange169]

Hello All,

I've been puzzling over Cross/Lechmere's route and I think I've finally cracked it. (Marked in red below)

I'm pretty confident in saying it was the shortest route from Mrs Nicols murder site to the Pickfords goods yard.

As I've mentioned previously it is by far the safest route.

I'm not sure whether he would have taken Primrose or Skinner (marked in green) as they both seem to be the same distance, but the rest is clear enough.

The other, long, unsafer and, I would argue, illogical route is marked in blue.

[drstrange169]

Originally, I mistook where the goods yard entrances were. (Marked in green)

The problem was, when I started researching, I found there was no way for a loaded cart to exit from any gates in that position.
Almost all the surrounding streets were blocked by bollards. (Marked in red)

The only open road option, the promisingly named, Horse Shoe Alley was too narrow for horse drawn carts. (Marked in blue)

On looking, no other area in the surrounding district was cordoned off to this extent,
so it's reasonable to assume the blocking was deliberately set up to stop the carters from entering via those streets.

There is an entrance in Eldon Street. (Marked "A")

Unfortunately, that entrance leads to a small area (marked "B") that is not big enough to support the 300 horses a night
I found out Pickfords were using at Broad Street Station. The other problem is, the background in pictures of carts in
the Broad Street goods yard that I found, show wide open spaces that matched the building configurations of the goods yard shown on the map. (Marked "C")

On looking closely at the map, I now believe the carts entered and left though an open Shed . (Marked "D")

The roads from this exit are wide, open and avail themselves for carts to travel in all directions.
It has the added advantage that it distances the haulers from the passenger congestion in front of Broad and Liverpool Streets stations.

[drstrange169]

Here's one of the Broad Street goods yard photos to give you an idea of how open the yard was. (As in the area marked "C')

[drstrange169]

One more post!

Here's the quote from the Middlesex Courier about the volume of horses going through Broad Street Station a night.

This means that Cross/Lechmere was arriving to a brightly lit hive of activity.
If he had any blood on his person or bloodied knives, he might have had difficulty disguising the fact.

[Lechmere]

Another interesting photo.
Do you have a date? And do you now it was taken at Broad Street?
The depot was remodelled several times.

If the entrance at D was used for Pickfords then you are right that the northern route is quickest and the most logical one to take.

However I very much doubt it was the relevant entrance;

The Address given was Eldon Street - not Sun Street or Appold Street.

Broad Street was on two levels. The goods depot was on the lower level as was the Pickfords Yard - as is made clear in that news snippet. The lower level was at the front - Eldon Street - part of the station precinct.

The access point D is into a building that seems to be blocked off from the Goods depot by walls. It is probably a service entrance for the tracks.

The building that access point D opens into is marked on a map I have as a 'covered tank'. Maybe it was where waste engine fuel or some such was kept before disposal?

It is far more likely that the entrance was on Eldon Street.

[Fisherman]

Yes, unless the carmen had developed a talent for jumping brick walls, horse, cart, load and all, I think we can safely exclude the building D as having been part of any Pickfords entrance - it obviously belonged to the railway.
Since the goods depot and the yard were positioned below the station, the maps we are looking at will not tell the whole story anyway.

What I would like to point out is that I think that we should avoid painting ourselves into a corner when it comes to the two routes to Pickfords - no matter if the one was shorter than the other or vice versa; if Lechmere was the killer, he may wisely have wanted to avoid having his killings occur at Hanbury Street addresses only. And if so, then he would be wise to employ the Old Montague Street option too, mixing up the cards and obscuring the pattern.
One more thing that belongs to the discussion is that Lechmere grew up very close to Old Montague Street; when he was around ten, he lived in Holloway Street and in Sion Square, both of these addresses being a stone´s throw away from Old Montague Street. His other, later, addresses were also to the south of Old Montague Street and none of them very far from it: James Street, Pinchin (Thomas) Street and Mary Anne Street.
He was always a lot closer to - and would have been much more aquainted with - Old Montague Street than Hanbury Street! So apart from it being a very hard thing to establish that Old Montague Street was a street that was scarier and more dangerous than Hanbury Street, it would seem that Lechmere belonged to the people who were supposed to scare others away from Old Montague Street. He belonged there, he grew up in the vicinity.

The best,
Fisherman