John Williams

[moonbegger]

Greetings all , A quick question for all my knowledgeable casebook friends .

I just recently read the Tony Williams book ( Uncle Jack ) . Stop .. where are you all going . Anyway ... I searched on here but was unable to find any feedback on it . Its about 15 years old , and I was curious to see what , if any , reaction there was to it . There are some very interesting alignments and timings . There is Motive , Method , opportunity , Local Knowledge , Workhouse familiarity & connection to victims, and I do rather like his letter stating he was attending a clinic in Whitechapel on the 8th sept , the day of the Chapman murder . along with a certain Mary Nichols showing up in one of his patient registers along with his experimental work pertaining to diseases of the uterus , his religious background ( Leviticus 7 ) and the horrific similarity's to Kellys murder scene . His probable workhouse bolt hole, under 5 mins from every crime scene , actually seconds from Bucks row ! Not to mention the Knife he kept amongst his prized possessions , which sits perfectly well with every suggestion of knife used by the killer .

One other interesting thing , its claim that all of the victims visited the workhouse surgery in the week leading up to their deaths .. and it also lays out an alternative reason why the murders may have ceased , looking back at " Leviticus 5 -7 " lies atonement for previous sins .. And it is chillingly uncanny , the similarity between Kellys scattered remains and the passage from the Bible ..

"As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering, and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. He is to wring its head from its neck, not dividing it completely, and is to splash some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven"

"In the place where they kill the burnt offering shall they kill the trespass offering: and the blood thereof shall he sprinkle round about upon the altar.
And he shall offer of it all the fat thereof; the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards, And the two kidneys, and the fat that is on them, which is by the flanks, and the caul that is above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away:
And the priest shall burn them upon the altar for an offering made by fire unto the Lord: it is a trespass offering."

Was just curious as to what the more Knowledgeable ripperologist's out there thought .. Sorry if this a moot subject for some of you ..

cheers ,

moonbegger

[GUT]

G'day Moonbegger

I just don't see the connection between Leviticus and MJK. I think you could find scores of Bible references that you could make fit as well or better any of the sacrifice passages would fit nicely. Not that I rule out a "religious mania".

[lynn cates]

head

Hello MB. About the only similarity I can find is that Polly and Annie's necks were cut deeply and the latter had an apparent attempt at decapitation.

Is that the reference? "He is to wring its head from its neck, not dividing it completely."

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. About the only similarity I can find is that Polly and Annie's necks were cut deeply and the latter had an apparent attempt at decapitation.

Is that the reference? "He is to wring its head from its neck, not dividing it completely."

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn & Gut

"He is to wring its head from its neck, not dividing it completely."

Kelly also ..

The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched.

And these two could be describing the same scene .

"splash some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar"

The bed clothing at the right corner was saturated with blood, & on the floor beneath was a pool of blood covering about 2 feet square. The wall by the right side of the bed & in a line with the neck was marked by blood which had struck it in a number of spearate splashes.

also ..
"The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven"

a fire had burned in the grate (part of a hat brim was in the grate and a near-by kettle had a melted spout and handle.

"it shall he take away . And the priest shall burn them upon the altar for an offering made by fire unto the Lord"

The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent.

Yes of course its probably all coincidental , but I am still interested in what your thoughts are on the rest of the tale ..

cheers

moonbegger

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Moonbegger.

Just off the top of my head:

The supposed motive put forward by Tony Williams was absolutely ludicrous.
Jenni Sheldon proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the listing of a Mary Nichols on the patient list as shown in the book was tampered with.
The workhouse ledger in which “J” Williams is listed turned out, upon inspection, to actually be “T” Williams so there is no evidence at all that John Williams ever worked in any clinic in Whitechapel (there is no mention in his own papers that he ever did).
There is no provenance to prove that the 8 September letter to “Morgan” is real. It appears to be in the same handwriting as the forged Mary Anne Nichols notation. Why would this letter be in Williams’ possession? Surely it would be in “Morgans’? What does it prove? Chapman was killed in the early hours of the 8th presumably hours before Williams would attend a clinic.
The woman that Tony Williams believes was Mary Kelly was not the Ripper victim Mary Kelly. Jonathon Davies, the supposed dead husband, was still alive and listed in the 1901 census.

This is only part of the evidence which punched a fairly huge hole in the credibility of the book.

Wolf.

[moonbegger]

Thanks Wolf , for all the background info , much appreciated .. That does indeed seem like a bunch of irrefutable holes .. Was there any dating procedure's done regarding the tampering , and conclusive proof who may have been responsible ?

Thanks again & cheers ,

moonbegger

[pinkmoon]

So after killing Mary Kelly doctor Williams went away hung up his knife and lived happily ever after he no longer had any urges to kill and mutilate I don't think so .

[Livia]

Hi Moonbegger

Ripperology is something of a family business in the
Williams clan. His daughter, Antonia Alexander also
wrote a book, "The Fifth Victim". In it she claims
Mary Kelly was her great great grandmother and lover
of Dr Williams. By the way, Tony Williams was illegitimate
and not related to Dr Williams at all.

There's more information over at the other forum and
also Jenni Shelden did an expose of Tony William's book
which I think was published in the Ripperologist a while back.

L.

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger

Ripperology is something of a family business in the
Williams clan. His daughter, Antonia Alexander also
wrote a book, "The Fifth Victim". In it she claims
Mary Kelly was her great great grandmother and lover
of Dr Williams. By the way, Tony Williams was illegitimate
and not related to Dr Williams at all.

There's more information over at the other forum and
also Jenni Shelden did an expose of Tony William's book
which I think was published in the Ripperologist a while back.

L.

Hi Livia ,

yes , her book was almost a carbon copy of "uncle Jack " thanks for your input Liv .. Does anyone have a link to the Ripperologist article ?

I like to read a suspect book from the perspective that its all BS , and only take from them the irrefutable facts , along with dots that can be reasonably connected . Even with extreme fabrications such as the Stephen Knight book and possibly this one , sifting through and leaving aside the BS , its quite remarkable how many Irrefutable facts and connectable dots that are still left standing .. maybe somewhere between the lines a little truth can be gleaned , and a whole new reality exposed .

Thanks again Wolf & Liv

moonbegger .