Favoured Suspect...

[Fiver]

yeah. unfortunate, killed on the street, cut throat, vertical gash to midsection, unsolved, same location, not too far out in time from previous victims. the clincher that pushes it over the line for me as probable ripper is the hiked up skirt.

The posing of the body is significant. McKenzie was either a Ripper victim, or her killer was a copycat. There was a 20 minute time window for the killing and mutilation, far more than was available for the Chapman killing, but we don't know where in that time window McKenzie was killed. The lesser mutilations could indicate the Ripper getting interrupted, or that the thrill was gone, or the Ripper's health was deteriorating. Or it could be a copycat, who found the mutilation didn't bring the thrill he hoped for or found he lacked the stomach to fully disguise his murder as a Ripper killing.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Alice McKenzie would appear to be pivotal to many suspects. I have observed that threads addressing her circumstances that start on this forum tend to peter out for reasons yet to be ascertained.

Jerry Dunlop authored an excellent post here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/other-possible-victims/alice-mackenzie/23672-something-doesn-t-add-up-alice-mackenzie-the-time-of-death/page6

It appears to me that there are questions to be raised about the exact whereabouts of Sgt Badham ( the officer that conveyed Chapman's body to the mortuary) at the time of the McKenzie murder. I believe that the subject of McKenzie could be furthered with the application of your unique talents.

Best regards, George

Thanks George. I've also noticed many of the discussions on McKenzie tend to start to get going, then sort of fizzle. I suspect, as her inclusion as a JtR victim is so uncertain that many spend their time focused on the more clear cases. Also, I think there's less information available to work with, in part of course because she's been less focussed on research wise.

I want to revisit the Stride case in terms of reconstructions as some interesting bits have come up in various threads that I think will be useful in updating what I've done. But that is such a big job to organise, and I've been busy with other things, that it may be awhile yet before I get that done. If I can scour the McKenzie threads and put together enough information to try my hand at that then I think it would be an interesting project, whether or not one views her as a JtR victim. From what I've gather from reading things so far, though, the time window in which her murder appears to have occurred makes the C5 cases look like JtR had all the time in the world to spare! While I've not really spent as much time on it as it deserves, my impression from what I've read is that it may be that her killer was starting to mutilate her abdomen when he realised how close the police actually were and so he fled, only to have her discovered moments later. I could be misinterpreting things though, which is why I really should force myself to go through things carefully.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Hi Abby,

I admit, I should look at the McKenzie case a lot more closely than I have as it is one that has enough suggestions to make it interesting. There were some discussions awhile back on the particulars, and as I recall, from the various police reports of their movements around the time of her discovery, there was very little time for the crime to actually happen, and there was a PC just up the street sort of thing. The time pressure, combined with the high risk element due to people/PC nearby, is very much in line with the Stride and Eddowes cases, and it could also be why the abdominal cuts are less extensive. I accept that there are, of course, counter points to be made, but at the same time there's that "hmmmm" about it that interests me.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Alice McKenzie would appear to be pivotal to many suspects. I have observed that threads addressing her circumstances that start on this forum tend to peter out for reasons yet to be ascertained.

Jerry Dunlop authored an excellent post here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/other-possible-victims/alice-mackenzie/23672-something-doesn-t-add-up-alice-mackenzie-the-time-of-death/page6

It appears to me that there are questions to be raised about the exact whereabouts of Sgt Badham ( the officer that conveyed Chapman's body to the mortuary) at the time of the McKenzie murder. I believe that the subject of McKenzie could be furthered with the application of your unique talents.

Best regards, George

[Lewis C]

well i think Mackenzie is probably a ripper victim but i also think bury is one of the least weak suspects. of course both cant be true but thats just how confounding this case is!

Hi Abby,

There really is no inconsistency between thinking Mackenzie is probably a Ripper victim and thinking that Bury is one of the least weak suspects if one believes as you do that all the named suspects are weak. If you think there's a 70% chance (as an example) that she was a Ripper victim, that would still leave a 30% chance that she wasn't. It might be that one thinks that a 10% chance that a particular suspect was the Ripper would be enough to make him one of the 2 best suspects. So if one thinks that there's a 30% chance that Mackenzie wasn't a Ripper victim, and a 10% chance that Bury was the Ripper, it works.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I admit, I should look at the McKenzie case a lot more closely than I have as it is one that has enough suggestions to make it interesting. There were some discussions awhile back on the particulars, and as I recall, from the various police reports of their movements around the time of her discovery, there was very little time for the crime to actually happen, and there was a PC just up the street sort of thing. The time pressure, combined with the high risk element due to people/PC nearby, is very much in line with the Stride and Eddowes cases, and it could also be why the abdominal cuts are less extensive. I accept that there are, of course, counter points to be made, but at the same time there's that "hmmmm" about it that interests me.

- Jeff

yeah. unfortunate, killed on the street, cut throat, vertical gash to midsection, unsolved, same location, not too far out in time from previous victims. the clincher that pushes it over the line for me as probable ripper is the hiked up skirt.

[JeffHamm]

well i think Mackenzie is probably a ripper victim but i also think bury is one of the least weak suspects. of course both cant be true but thats just how confounding this case is!

Hi Abby,

I admit, I should look at the McKenzie case a lot more closely than I have as it is one that has enough suggestions to make it interesting. There were some discussions awhile back on the particulars, and as I recall, from the various police reports of their movements around the time of her discovery, there was very little time for the crime to actually happen, and there was a PC just up the street sort of thing. The time pressure, combined with the high risk element due to people/PC nearby, is very much in line with the Stride and Eddowes cases, and it could also be why the abdominal cuts are less extensive. I accept that there are, of course, counter points to be made, but at the same time there's that "hmmmm" about it that interests me.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Hi RD,

I'd expect Jack the Ripper to have been someone like or similar to Francis Thompson, but other than that I don't really have a favoured suspect.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I have a similar expectation, especially for Eddowes and Kelly.

Best regards, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

well i think Mackenzie is probably a ripper victim but i also think bury is one of the least weak suspects. of course both cant be true but thats just how confounding this case is!

I’ve always thought that she was probably not but that she might have been. I don’t go any stronger than ‘probably’ because if I did certain people would accuse me of trying to keep Druitt ‘in the game.’ In reality it wouldn’t bother at all if he was proven innocent. Or indeed any suspect. I want them all proven innocent accept one.

[Abby Normal]

A lot of times, people are added or subtracted from the victim list based on whether they fit a suspect theory. I think Nichols, Chapman, and Eddows are definite victims. Kelly is near certain, Tabram probable, Stride possible, McKenzie unlikely, but not impossible.

well i think Mackenzie is probably a ripper victim but i also think bury is one of the least weak suspects. of course both cant be true but thats just how confounding this case is!

[Fiver]

I find myself in the same place as Jeff - insufficient evidence to identify the murderer or narrow down to a favoured suspect. Some theories are stronger than others and some I allow myself to completely discount. It becomes even more difficult when we collectively are unable to agree on the full list of victims - I for one cannot entirely discount Martha Tabram and Alice McKenzie, and if they were to be included, then some popular suspects, such as Druitt, are no longer viable suspects.

A lot of times, people are added or subtracted from the victim list based on whether they fit a suspect theory. I think Nichols, Chapman, and Eddows are definite victims. Kelly is near certain, Tabram probable, Stride possible, McKenzie unlikely, but not impossible.

[etenguy]

I find myself in the same place as Jeff - insufficient evidence to identify the murderer or narrow down to a favoured suspect. Some theories are stronger than others and some I allow myself to completely discount. It becomes even more difficult when we collectively are unable to agree on the full list of victims - I for one cannot entirely discount Martha Tabram and Alice McKenzie, and if they were to be included, then some popular suspects, such as Druitt, are no longer viable suspects.

[JeffHamm]

I don't have a suspect, favoured or otherwise. I don't think the evidence we have allows the building of connections from any of the crime scenes to any particular individual. There are too many bridges that need to span the "unknown" to get to the information about various suspects to complete the connections.

By that, I mean identified individual, so while I think there are good arguments to be made about "unknown men seen in the company of X", I don't consider "unknown man" as a suspect in the sense I believe it is intended in this thread.

Mind you, I see some interesting possibilities that could be explored related to the "Bethnal Green Botherer", but as they too are unidentified, and it is not even established if the various snippets and accounts are even about the same individual, I can't elevate that beyond "interesting possibility to explore". Just not sure how that could get explored any further though. In many theories, particularly ones we favour, we don't notice when we leave the trail of evidence and start crossing on a bridge built of conjecture, and as a result fail to notice that our bridge lacks any real evidential support, and the link to the BGB would more than satisfy that concern if presented as any thing other than a "hmmm, curious idea" (fortunately, it hasn't been so far).

- Jeff

[FrankO]

Question...


Do you have a favoured suspect, or are you on the fence?


It would be interesting to see what percentage of members have a suspect they favour and those who don't have one.

Hi RD,

I'd expect Jack the Ripper to have been someone like or similar to Francis Thompson, but other than that I don't really have a favoured suspect.

Cheers,
Frank

[Geddy2112]

Lechmere was spotted alone, in the dark, near a freshly killed woman, gave a controversially statement to the police, lived in Whitechapel, had the opportunity to be outside at the time of murders, was alive and breathing when Mckenzie was killed, and Lechmere violently killed a totally strange to him boy.

Who spotted him alone? Was not Robert Paul as Lechmere approached him. Where is this controversial statement? I've ready many versions of his statement and it's certainly not controversial. Violently killed a strange boy? Is this twisting of evidence straight out of the Holmgren play book? He accidentally knocked down a child. And if I'm being fair we are not even 100% sure our Cross was that Cross. Sorry right up there with the 100% b/s on this post of yours.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well said RD. Casebook is replete with these ‘detours’ and coincidentally it’s always after a post by a certain poster. Moving on though….