O to W Vote

[lynn cates]

sermon

Hello John. Thanks.

The usual sermon one gets for Tumblety (or Druitt or Kosminski) is that the police may have had really good evidence, but we don't know.

Of course, Sir MLM tipped his hand with Ostrog. Not too compelling.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

I put my vote with the Tumblety camp , but I wouldn't be too surprised if Dr John Williams emerged from a non starter to a pack leader in the not too distant future ..
cheers ,
moonbegger .

[mklhawley]

Hi Lynn

I am aware of Littlechild's letter however in my opinion there is little else to put Tumblety in the frame for being Jack the Ripper. Other than the usual he was in London at the time argument.

Cheers John

That's because or opinion is baseless. Assistant Commissioner Anderson solicited information on Ripper suspect, Francis Tumblety, at the peak of the murders. He wouldn't have done this for a weak candidate. He knew a lot more than we do. Is it a coincidence that Littlechild reinforces this, a man who also was privy to the investigation? Not.

Brooklyn Citizen, November 23, 1888
“Is He The Ripper?” A Brooklynite Charged With the Whitechapel Murders Superintendent Campbell Asked by the London Police to Hunt Up the Record of Francis Tumblety — Captain Eason Supplies the Information and It Is Interesting
Police Superintendent Campbell received a cable dispatch yesterday from Mr. Anderson, the deputy chief of the London Police, asking him to make some inquiries about Francis Tumblety, who is under arrest in England on the charge of indecent assault. Tumblety is referred to in the dispatch in the following manner: “He says he is known to you, Chief, as Brooklyn’s Beauty.”
Tumblety was arrested in London some weeks ago as the supposed Whitechapel murderer. Since his incarceration in prison he has boasted of how he had succeeded in baffling the police. He also claimed that he was a resident of Brooklyn, and this was what caused the Deputy Chief of Police to communicate with Superintendent Campbell. The superintendent gave the dispatch immediate attention, and through Captain Eason, of the Second Precinct, has learned all about Tumblety. He came to this city in 1863 from Sherbrook, Canada, where he said he had been a practicing physician. He opened a store on the southeast corner of Fulton and Nassau streets, and sold herb preparations. He did a tremendous business and deposited in the Brooklyn Savings Bank at least $100 a day. He was a very eccentric character, six feet high, dark complexion, large and long flowing mustache, and well built.

Let me see if I can think of any other reasons. Oh yes, he had an extreme hatred of women, and the evidence supports that he did indeed have an anatomical collection, which included uterus specimens.

To suggest that he's tall and had a mustache which would make him stand out too much is ridiculous. It wasn't like everyone was 5' 8". That's just an average. Check out any old photo. Now, if he was 7 foot tall, that would be different. Also, mustaches were common. So what if it was bigger. Keep in mind the 500 pound brilliantly colored tiger kills his prey by stealth. Tumblety himself said he dressed as to not bring attention to himself. Whitechapel at night was crowded in the streets and dark in the alleys.

To suggest that he doesn't fit the eyewitness descriptions is also short sighted. First, Scotland Yard certainly took him seriously and were the keepers of the 'eyewitness' list. Second, we have no idea who the killer was because no one saw the murders take place. The eyewitness descriptions vary and might not even be of the killer, anyway.

To discount him because he never killed again is also wrong, because, if he was the killer, it was not because of a sado-sexual mania. The man was a narcissist and could care less about others in the way of his selfish agenda.

This may sound like a sermon, Lynn, but it's a reality.

I'm still amazed that people in the 21st century, who do not have access to the files of the Ripper investigation, believe those who were trained investigators who did have access at the time of the murders, were completely idiotic.

Mike

[lynn cates]

Anderson

Hello Mike. Thanks.

But don't you think something like that of Dr. Anderson?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I'm still amazed that people in the 21st century, who do not have access to the files of the Ripper investigation, believe those who were trained investigators who did have access at the time of the murders, were completely idiotic.

Mike

Hi Mike.
I can't believe anyone suggests they were idiotic.

The first reservations I have about the Littlechild letter is that Littlechild was not actively involved in the Whitechapel murders. So, what we appear to have is the Chief of Special Irish Branch offering an opinion gained, somehow, from the Scotland Yard criminal investigation dept.
If this is the case, on what basis did Littlechild think Tumblety was a good murder suspect?

Was he judging Tumblety on what he knew about him via the Special Irish Branch?, or was he making this comment based on what he was told by another detective from the C.I.D.?

So my first concern is that this opinion being offered by Littlechild is not the result of first-hand knowledge. It may be just more gossip. Internal gossip perhaps, but gossip nevertheless.

How much more credibility would the letter hold if it had been written by Anderson, Swanson, or Abberline?

[John Wheat]

"That's because or opinion is baseless. Assistant Commissioner Anderson solicited information on Ripper suspect, Francis Tumblety, at the peak of the murders. He wouldn't have done this for a weak candidate. He knew a lot more than we do. Is it a coincidence that Littlechild reinforces this, a man who also was privy to the investigation? "

"To suggest that he doesn't fit the eyewitness descriptions is also short sighted."

"To discount him because he never killed again is also wrong. "

"This may sound like a sermon, Lynn, but it's a reality."

"I'm still amazed that people in the 21st century, who do not have access to the files of the Ripper investigation, believe those who were trained investigators who did have access at the time of the murders, were completely idiotic."

To Mike

I can assure you my opinion is not baseless. I don't believe the the Police were idiots however the Police at the time never solved the murders so you can't put that much faith in them. I never said Tumblety didn't fit any witness descriptions.

As expected you trot out the usual the Police at the time know more than we do argument. Well if they did have that much info on Tumlety as a suspect why isn't he now known as Jack the Ripper then?

Why is dismissing Tumblety because he never killed again wrong? Generally you'd expect a serial killer to continue killing until imprisoned or there death.

A very eccentric character, six feet high, dark complexion, large and long flowing mustache, and well built would stick out in those days.

In all likeliness Tumblety was a homosexual. It is rare for homosexual serial killers to murder women.

It's a reality. Bullshit you have no real proof Tumblety was the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

That's because or opinion is baseless. Assistant Commissioner Anderson solicited information on Ripper suspect, Francis Tumblety, at the peak of the murders. He wouldn't have done this for a weak candidate. He knew a lot more than we do. Is it a coincidence that Littlechild reinforces this, a man who also was privy to the investigation? Not.

Brooklyn Citizen, November 23, 1888
“Is He The Ripper?” A Brooklynite Charged With the Whitechapel Murders Superintendent Campbell Asked by the London Police to Hunt Up the Record of Francis Tumblety — Captain Eason Supplies the Information and It Is Interesting
Police Superintendent Campbell received a cable dispatch yesterday from Mr. Anderson, the deputy chief of the London Police, asking him to make some inquiries about Francis Tumblety, who is under arrest in England on the charge of indecent assault. Tumblety is referred to in the dispatch in the following manner: “He says he is known to you, Chief, as Brooklyn’s Beauty.”
Tumblety was arrested in London some weeks ago as the supposed Whitechapel murderer. Since his incarceration in prison he has boasted of how he had succeeded in baffling the police. He also claimed that he was a resident of Brooklyn, and this was what caused the Deputy Chief of Police to communicate with Superintendent Campbell. The superintendent gave the dispatch immediate attention, and through Captain Eason, of the Second Precinct, has learned all about Tumblety. He came to this city in 1863 from Sherbrook, Canada, where he said he had been a practicing physician. He opened a store on the southeast corner of Fulton and Nassau streets, and sold herb preparations. He did a tremendous business and deposited in the Brooklyn Savings Bank at least $100 a day. He was a very eccentric character, six feet high, dark complexion, large and long flowing mustache, and well built.

Let me see if I can think of any other reasons. Oh yes, he had an extreme hatred of women, and the evidence supports that he did indeed have an anatomical collection, which included uterus specimens.

To suggest that he's tall and had a mustache which would make him stand out too much is ridiculous. It wasn't like everyone was 5' 8". That's just an average. Check out any old photo. Now, if he was 7 foot tall, that would be different. Also, mustaches were common. So what if it was bigger. Keep in mind the 500 pound brilliantly colored tiger kills his prey by stealth. Tumblety himself said he dressed as to not bring attention to himself. Whitechapel at night was crowded in the streets and dark in the alleys.

To suggest that he doesn't fit the eyewitness descriptions is also short sighted. First, Scotland Yard certainly took him seriously and were the keepers of the 'eyewitness' list. Second, we have no idea who the killer was because no one saw the murders take place. The eyewitness descriptions vary and might not even be of the killer, anyway.

To discount him because he never killed again is also wrong, because, if he was the killer, it was not because of a sado-sexual mania. The man was a narcissist and could care less about others in the way of his selfish agenda.

This may sound like a sermon, Lynn, but it's a reality.

I'm still amazed that people in the 21st century, who do not have access to the files of the Ripper investigation, believe those who were trained investigators who did have access at the time of the murders, were completely idiotic.

Mike

Hi mike
If dr t had anything to do with it, I would go with the American dr looking for uterus specimens angle. I could see him finding someone like a chapman to do the dirty work for him. He doesn't seem to be the kind to get his hands dirty.
Besides he was gay, so f the motive was lust murder he would target gays. Plus it kind of matches up with abberlines theory, so it's got that going for it.
What do you think?

[mklhawley]

As expected you trot out the usual the Police at the time know more than we do argument. Well if they did have that much info on Tumlety as a suspect why isn't he now known as Jack the Ripper then?

Because once the MacKenzie murder occurred - someone they thought to be a ripper murder at the time - and Tumblety was in New York, he must not have been the Ripper.

Why is dismissing Tumblety because he never killed again wrong? Generally you'd expect a serial killer to continue killing until imprisoned or there death.

You'd better brush up on serial killer motives. I certainly would agree that if JTR was a sado-sexual serial killer, and if it was Tumblety, he'd probably have killed again. It's a misconception that all serial killers continue to kill.

A very eccentric character, six feet high, dark complexion, large and long flowing mustache, and well built would stick out in those days.

You're not listening. Tumblety was not dark complexion, he was Irish. When the average height is 5 ft 8 inches, it doesn't mean everyone but one or two are that height. He would not have stuck out; quite the contrary, especially when he said he dressed to not stick out.

In all likeliness Tumblety was a homosexual. It is rare for homosexual serial killers to murder women.

Your ignorance again. Sadosexual homosexual serial killers go after their desire - men. Jeffrey Dahmer is an example, but that's not Tumblety's motive.

It's a reality. Bullshit you have no real proof Tumblety was the Ripper.

I'm sorry; someone has proof of any of the suspects? That's not my point. You said, other than the Littlechild letter, there's very little to connect Tumblety with the Ripper. First, that's a huge piece of evidence, because we now know Special Branch was involved in the Ripper case, and Littlechild would definitely have known about Tumblety because of his Irish sympathy connections. I then said, Tumblety was a known woman hater - to the extreme -, he had an anatomical collection, and when he left, the murders stopped. When he died, they found two cheap brass rings on his possession, which were very similar to Chapman's. There's even more than that, but...

[mklhawley]

Hi mike
If dr t had anything to do with it, I would go with the American dr looking for uterus specimens angle. I could see him finding someone like a chapman to do the dirty work for him. He doesn't seem to be the kind to get his hands dirty.
Besides he was gay, so f the motive was lust murder he would target gays. Plus it kind of matches up with abberlines theory, so it's got that going for it.
What do you think?

Hi Abby Normal, if Tumblety was JTR, you might have something here.

Sincerely,
Mike

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike. Thanks.

But don't you think something like that of Dr. Anderson?

Cheers.
LC

Yes, very thorough gent, but this was at the peak of the murders and he certainly was a busy man.

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike.
I can't believe anyone suggests they were idiotic.

The first reservations I have about the Littlechild letter is that Littlechild was not actively involved in the Whitechapel murders. So, what we appear to have is the Chief of Special Irish Branch offering an opinion gained, somehow, from the Scotland Yard criminal investigation dept.
If this is the case, on what basis did Littlechild think Tumblety was a good murder suspect?

Was he judging Tumblety on what he knew about him via the Special Irish Branch?, or was he making this comment based on what he was told by another detective from the C.I.D.?

So my first concern is that this opinion being offered by Littlechild is not the result of first-hand knowledge. It may be just more gossip. Internal gossip perhaps, but gossip nevertheless.

How much more credibility would the letter hold if it had been written by Anderson, Swanson, or Abberline?

I'm not ignoring you Jon. Can this wait until my article gets published in August? You'll see why.

Mike

[John Wheat]

Because once the MacKenzie murder occurred - someone they thought to be a ripper murder at the time - and Tumblety was in New York, he must not have been the Ripper.



You'd better brush up on serial killer motives. I certainly would agree that if JTR was a sado-sexual serial killer, and if it was Tumblety, he'd probably have killed again. It's a misconception that all serial killers continue to kill.



You're not listening. Tumblety was not dark complexion, he was Irish. When the average height is 5 ft 8 inches, it doesn't mean everyone but one or two are that height. He would not have stuck out; quite the contrary, especially when he said he dressed to not stick out.




Your ignorance again. Sadosexual homosexual serial killers go after their desire - men. Jeffrey Dahmer is an example, but that's not Tumblety's motive.


I'm sorry; someone has proof of any of the suspects? That's not my point. You said, other than the Littlechild letter, there's very little to connect Tumblety with the Ripper. First, that's a huge piece of evidence, because we now know Special Branch was involved in the Ripper case, and Littlechild would definitely have known about Tumblety because of his Irish sympathy connections. I then said, Tumblety was a known woman hater - to the extreme -, he had an anatomical collection, and when he left, the murders stopped. When he died, they found two cheap brass rings on his possession, which were very similar to Chapman's. There's even more than that, but...

Few people then or now regard Mckenzie as a Ripper Murder.

I am listening, the dark complexion was from your source. If you don't agree with it why use it?

In all likelyhood Jack was a sado-sexual serial killer. I never said all serial killers continue to kill.

Using the term it's a reality implies you regard Tumblety as the Ripper as a reality or atleast that was my reading. If I misread this remark apologies.

Cheers John

[Barnaby]

Hi GUT,

Prince Eddy was the last choice for what I think is a valid reason. From all my reading he seemed fairly harmless but stupid.

Jeff

That's what they always say. I suppose he also was a seemingly nice, but quiet, neighbor who generally kept to himself.

[mklhawley]

Few people then or now regard Mckenzie as a Ripper Murder.

I am listening, the dark complexion was from your source. If you don't agree with it why use it?

In all likelyhood Jack was a sado-sexual serial killer. I never said all serial killers continue to kill.

Using the term it's a reality implies you regard Tumblety as the Ripper as a reality or atleast that was my reading. If I misread this remark apologies.

Cheers John

Actually, I should be apologizing to you, John. My response was quite sharp. Here's what I was talking about with the McKenzie murder:

The Olean Democrat, August 8, 1889
We [Tumblety and the reporter0 parted at the Brooklyn end of the bridge. Shortly thereafter the last Whitechapel murder occurred in London, and as Tumblety was without doubt in Brooklyn at the time, he is evidently unjustly suspected of being “Jack the Ripper.”

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

It shoud be - [Tumblety and the reporter]