Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The kill ladder

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    But then we also have a logical problem -- These known murderers and individuals with a history of violence, prior to their first murder or act of violence had never murdered or acted violently, correct?

    c.d.
    So you're saying before he murdered women, he had never murdered women?

    Ths Ripper couldn't have been a murderer before he murdered women.

    Well..maybe because his first kill...was his first kill

    His first act of violence...was his first act of violence


    You also can't breathe before you're conceived, but that doesn't mean you cant be born.

    ​​​


    It does sound a little like non-sensical gibberish designed to disrupt a perfectly good thread; but I get it.


    I would expect no less from some folk



    RD


    ​​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    For me…

    Rung A - Bury, Kosminski and Druitt.

    Rung B - no one but a yawning chasm.

    Rung C - Cutbush, Levy, Hyams, Tumblety (not sure about his place)

    Rung D - no one.

    Rung E - no one.

    Rung Z - Cross, Hutchinson, Gull, Lewis Carroll.
    I never realised Druitt was a known/convicted murderer?


    Interesting


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post
    A few ladders, how many snakes?
    Only one...

    The Ripper himself



    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • Lewis C
    replied
    James Kelly, Frederick Deeming, H. H. Holmes, and Carl Feigenbaum are known murderers, and so they'd go in the top rung, though I think the last two are extremely weak suspects.

    Thomas Cutbush, William Grainger, David Cohen, and Hyam Hyams all were violent, so they can go on Rung 2.

    I think Aaron Kosminski probably goes on Rung 3. He threatened someone's sister with a knife, but didn't attack. He was in a lunatic asylum for 25 years and had one one reported incident of violence, when he attacked someone with a chair.

    Montague Druitt can be added to Rung 5. I think Joseph Barnett can be too.

    Someone died as a result of taking one of Francis Tumblety's quack medicines. I don't know if that fits into this classification.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geddy2112
    replied
    A few ladders, how many snakes?

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    So...it's been a few days, so I thought...


    Time for another new thread!


    Let's build the "Kill Ladder"

    5 rungs...


    Top rung...



    How many of the known Ripper suspects and persons of interest were also murderers?


    Bury -
    No link to any of the Ripper murders, but capable of being the Ripper at a canter.

    Chapman -
    Direct links to the area and one of the only "Old Skool" suspects with a pedigree for killing. Very different MO to Bury and very unlike the Ripper's MO.


    Who else goes onto this known killer rung?


    I think it's important to know how many suspects and persons of interest had the proven credentials to kill...




    Now, if we move to the next rung down, we also have several Persons of interest with a known history of violence...

    Rung 2...


    Le Grand
    (Prone to extreme violence against women in particular - sentenced to a whopping 20 years before being deported, although he didn't serve the entire sentence as it was reduced. However, it's intriguing that the Home Office intervened directly to delay his early release. He was eventually deported)

    Morganstern/Morganstone
    (Prone to extreme violence and once took his shirt off before he cut, stabbed and beat several women, before vaulting over a high wall and escaping - had a former direct connection to MJK and therefore can be linked to one of the Ripper victims)

    Edward Buckley
    (a petty career criminal who began small, but the progressed to cutting and stabbing his paramour on multiple separate occasions...but then went back to being a petty criminal and ended in a whimper with some odd public behavior. He also once lived at the coffee house at 14 Hanbury Street, to which he fled after cutting his paramour. 14 Hanbury Street subsequently burnt down and was rebuilt in early 1888)


    Daniel Sullivan
    (a career criminal who worked for Crossingham and prone to violence. He was directly involved in the attempted covering up of the murder of Mary Ann Austin in 1901, that occurred at 35 Dorset Street/Crossinghams)


    There are others of course that can be added to rung 2.




    Moving down the next rung...


    Rung 3...

    We then have some individuals that were known to endorse the use of violence...

    Bachert
    (As Alfred Charrington, Head of the notorious Skeleton army in Whitechapel)

    McCarthy
    (involved in the world of pugilist fighting, but he was given a seal of approval by a certain Officer Thicke)

    Crossingham (as above)

    Dr Barnardo
    (once assaulted a young woman on the street, who tried to defend her father from being attacked by a group of "Barnardos Boys")

    Again, there are many others to add to this rung 3.


    Let's go down to rung 4, those individuals who had no history of violence, and have remained somewhat of a mystery over time.



    Rung 4...


    Hutchinson
    (A self confessed friend of MJK's despite nobody else knowing who he was. Gave an overly detailed description of a suspect that required a photographic memory to remember and recall in such vivid detail. Only exists in the context of the MJK murder, outside of which he remains an unknown)

    Schwartz
    (Saw and heard a key event shortly before the murder of Stride, and yet nobody saw him, saw or heard anything he claimed to have witnessed, and he only exists in the context of the Stride murder, outside of which he remains an unknown)



    We then have the bottom rung, which includes those individuals with NO KNOWN evidence of a history of violence or the capabilities to kill AND was well documented through time both before and after the murders...


    Rung 5 -


    Lechmere
    (We know more about him than we need to know. Being found a few yards away from Nichols being his only link to anything remotely dodgy. He has NO attributing factors regarding the Ripper killings)

    Maybrick
    (No history of violence and no known connection to any of the victims. Only considered because of a suspect watch and even more suspect diary. The jury is out)



    This bottom rung has a long list also.




    So, there we have it, a kind of suspect league table based on a ladder system; the higher the rung, the more likely the individual can be possibly attributed to some of the Ripper methods and application


    It is now your turn to add to that ladder and see where each suspect and person of interest best fits.


    1 - convicted and/or proven murderers, capable and willing to kill
    2 - strong history of violence and capable of being the Ripper given the right circumstances
    3 - known for endorsing/promoting/supporting violence and/or minor offenses.
    4 -No known history of violence, but remain unknown entities.
    5 - No known history of violence and well-documented lives before and after the Ripper series


    You may have noticed that some individuals could be placed on multiple rungs; Le Grand for example could be considered on rung B or A depending on perspective and timing.

    And yes, I am aware the ladder is technically upside down, what with all the different rung terminology, but it's metaphoric so please just go with it.




    The main aim of this thread is to get those "kill Ladder" rungs filled up with as many suspects and persons of interest as possible...


    Could be fun



    RD
    For me…

    Rung A - Bury, Kosminski and Druitt.

    Rung B - no one but a yawning chasm.

    Rung C - Cutbush, Levy, Hyams, Tumblety (not sure about his place)

    Rung D - no one.

    Rung E - no one.

    Rung Z - Cross, Hutchinson, Gull, Lewis Carroll.

    Leave a comment:


  • c.d.
    replied
    But then we also have a logical problem -- These known murderers and individuals with a history of violence, prior to their first murder or act of violence had never murdered or acted violently, correct?

    c.d.

    Leave a comment:


  • Losmandris
    replied
    Interesting. We have scant few names now but at the time this ladder would have been made up of hundreds if not thousands of potential persons of interest.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    started a topic The kill ladder

    The kill ladder

    So...it's been a few days, so I thought...


    Time for another new thread!


    Let's build the "Kill Ladder"

    5 rungs...


    Top rung...



    How many of the known Ripper suspects and persons of interest were also murderers?


    Bury -
    No link to any of the Ripper murders, but capable of being the Ripper at a canter.

    Chapman -
    Direct links to the area and one of the only "Old Skool" suspects with a pedigree for killing. Very different MO to Bury and very unlike the Ripper's MO.


    Who else goes onto this known killer rung?


    I think it's important to know how many suspects and persons of interest had the proven credentials to kill...




    Now, if we move to the next rung down, we also have several Persons of interest with a known history of violence...

    Rung 2...


    Le Grand
    (Prone to extreme violence against women in particular - sentenced to a whopping 20 years before being deported, although he didn't serve the entire sentence as it was reduced. However, it's intriguing that the Home Office intervened directly to delay his early release. He was eventually deported)

    Morganstern/Morganstone
    (Prone to extreme violence and once took his shirt off before he cut, stabbed and beat several women, before vaulting over a high wall and escaping - had a former direct connection to MJK and therefore can be linked to one of the Ripper victims)

    Edward Buckley
    (a petty career criminal who began small, but the progressed to cutting and stabbing his paramour on multiple separate occasions...but then went back to being a petty criminal and ended in a whimper with some odd public behavior. He also once lived at the coffee house at 14 Hanbury Street, to which he fled after cutting his paramour. 14 Hanbury Street subsequently burnt down and was rebuilt in early 1888)


    Daniel Sullivan
    (a career criminal who worked for Crossingham and prone to violence. He was directly involved in the attempted covering up of the murder of Mary Ann Austin in 1901, that occurred at 35 Dorset Street/Crossinghams)


    There are others of course that can be added to rung 2.




    Moving down the next rung...


    Rung 3...

    We then have some individuals that were known to endorse the use of violence...

    Bachert
    (As Alfred Charrington, Head of the notorious Skeleton army in Whitechapel)

    McCarthy
    (involved in the world of pugilist fighting, but he was given a seal of approval by a certain Officer Thicke)

    Crossingham (as above)

    Dr Barnardo
    (once assaulted a young woman on the street, who tried to defend her father from being attacked by a group of "Barnardos Boys")

    Again, there are many others to add to this rung 3.


    Let's go down to rung 4, those individuals who had no history of violence, and have remained somewhat of a mystery over time.



    Rung 4...


    Hutchinson
    (A self confessed friend of MJK's despite nobody else knowing who he was. Gave an overly detailed description of a suspect that required a photographic memory to remember and recall in such vivid detail. Only exists in the context of the MJK murder, outside of which he remains an unknown)

    Schwartz
    (Saw and heard a key event shortly before the murder of Stride, and yet nobody saw him, saw or heard anything he claimed to have witnessed, and he only exists in the context of the Stride murder, outside of which he remains an unknown)



    We then have the bottom rung, which includes those individuals with NO KNOWN evidence of a history of violence or the capabilities to kill AND was well documented through time both before and after the murders...


    Rung 5 -


    Lechmere
    (We know more about him than we need to know. Being found a few yards away from Nichols being his only link to anything remotely dodgy. He has NO attributing factors regarding the Ripper killings)

    Maybrick
    (No history of violence and no known connection to any of the victims. Only considered because of a suspect watch and even more suspect diary. The jury is out)



    This bottom rung has a long list also.




    So, there we have it, a kind of suspect league table based on a ladder system; the higher the rung, the more likely the individual can be possibly attributed to some of the Ripper methods and application


    It is now your turn to add to that ladder and see where each suspect and person of interest best fits.


    1 - convicted and/or proven murderers, capable and willing to kill
    2 - strong history of violence and capable of being the Ripper given the right circumstances
    3 - known for endorsing/promoting/supporting violence and/or minor offenses.
    4 -No known history of violence, but remain unknown entities.
    5 - No known history of violence and well-documented lives before and after the Ripper series


    You may have noticed that some individuals could be placed on multiple rungs; Le Grand for example could be considered on rung B or A depending on perspective and timing.

    And yes, I am aware the ladder is technically upside down, what with all the different rung terminology, but it's metaphoric so please just go with it.




    The main aim of this thread is to get those "kill Ladder" rungs filled up with as many suspects and persons of interest as possible...


    Could be fun



    RD
    Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 04-23-2024, 02:01 PM.
Working...
X