Bucks Row - The Other Side of the Coin.

[rjpalmer]

My favorite is the old gal with the peashooter.

When Old Ben the rooster crowed, she knew it was 4.30 and time to make her rounds.

[rjpalmer]

I'm generally quite good at 'guessing the time' but I'm rarely spot on and we have watches, computers, clocks etc all over. The problem with using 'time' as you say in Victorian times as a method of pinning blame on a suspect is purely that, a problem, it's completely inaccurate. You may think you are giving an accurate time but in reality it would hardly ever be the case. If they use this method of 'exact' timings the theory is easy to disprove. I personally think I have done this here or at least provided some doubt to that beyond a reasonable one.

Good news about the pub

You seem to be forgetting that we have an actual photograph of a man knocking up Robert Paul's old lady.

Note his accurate timepiece.

[Geddy2112]

This modern obsession with trying to pin down exact times in 1888 only seems to come from Lechmere theorists, which suggests an unhealthy reliance on clocks and watches that were riddled with human error, and understandable guesswork from those same fallible humans, who tended to round up or down to the nearest quarter of an hour, half an hour or hour, depending on individual circumstances and the need to be as accurate as humanly possible.

I'm generally quite good at 'guessing the time' but I'm rarely spot on and we have watches, computers, clocks etc all over. The problem with using 'time' as you say in Victorian times as a method of pinning blame on a suspect is purely that, a problem, it's completely inaccurate. You may think you are giving an accurate time but in reality it would hardly ever be the case. If they use this method of 'exact' timings the theory is easy to disprove. I personally think I have done this here or at least provided some doubt to that beyond a reasonable one.

Good news about the pub

[caz]

Good news - the large clock on the wall of our nearest pub, on a busy crossroads, has finally been repaired and set to the right time, nearly ten years after we moved in across the road, and by the fourth landlord and lady to run it since.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I can only suggest you watch and listen the conference talk from May 2022, in the podcast section of this forum.
That will fulluly demonstrate that the times given by the participants are only guides.
One of the big issues for me is how the Lechmere theory to a great degree depends on exact, absolute times, when such really were not avalible in 1888.

Steve

This modern obsession with trying to pin down exact times in 1888 only seems to come from Lechmere theorists, which suggests an unhealthy reliance on clocks and watches that were riddled with human error, and understandable guesswork from those same fallible humans, who tended to round up or down to the nearest quarter of an hour, half an hour or hour, depending on individual circumstances and the need to be as accurate as humanly possible.

In short, Lechmere theorists would be better off looking for signs that the man had violent tendencies towards women, instead of trying to nail jelly to the wall in Buck's Row.

IMHO, naturally.

As I've observed on many an occasion, it's Lechmere's highly credible claim to have thought the body was a tarpaulin at first, until he drew closer, that nails it for me. Not the jelly, but his innocence. His first sight of the victim was of a corpse, not an opportunity.

Love,

Caz
X

[Geddy2112]

I suppose that if one believes that Cross was the killer, then that would mean that Robert Paul found the body. If one takes a neutral position on whether or not Cross was the killer, one would have to say that Cross found the body.

Hi Lewis, exactly correct. The problem I have is why they believe Paul and not Cross? I've said a few times, Paul seems the more economical with the truth from what we have in testimonies and newspaper accounts.

What was the methodology for Cross being the killer? It seems they found out about the name change, went 'woo that bloke is Cross who was there' and subsequently fitted him up. The misinterpreted one piece of evidence, i.e. the name Cross and threw mud at him until some stuck long enough to write a book, make a documentary and some shoddy YouTube videos.

I could be wrong but the more and more I look into this aspect of the case the weaker Cross gets and to be honest the stronger Robert Paul (Baul) opps typo or wrong name, gets for possibly being the killer of poor Polly.

[Lewis C]

Good day sir, that is the problem though. The Lechmere Theory experts, CH and Ed are now distancing themselves from the 'found' a body to him 'being found near the body.' It makes all the difference, apparently. My point being then is 'who found the body?' Someone had to surely. Lechmere gave the name he was known by at Pickfords. No lie, no conspiracy, no deception, no trying to wriggle out of being a murderer. The 'name' thing is the biggest pile of shite for pointing to guilt I've ever read and if you watch these YouTube videos they proclaim it like it's the rope that should hang him. Then you get the 'sheep' in the comments... 'oh yeah guilty AF, he gave a fake name.' Stupidity breeds stupidity.

Hi Geddy,

I suppose that if one believes that Cross was the killer, then that would mean that Robert Paul found the body. If one takes a neutral position on whether or not Cross was the killer, one would have to say that Cross found the body.

[Elamarna]

Thank you muchly sir. The questions were sort of rhetorical as I've read the reports, the statements and 'Inside Bucks Row.' (Most of it anyhoo)

This is the problem I've got and mentioned in the O.P. If Paul is to be believed then it put him in Bucks Row when PC Neil was there. There is no time to move away from Lechmere, go to the body, check the body, do the prop up conversation and the pulling down of the skirts etc then head off to meet with Mizen, which of course he also lied about. There are so many things not fitting here but we are led to believe Charles Lechmere is the dishonest one. I'm not so sure.

I can only suggest you watch and listen the conference talk from May 2022, in the podcast section of this forum.
That will fulluly demonstrate that the times given by the participants are only guides.
One of the big issues for me is how the Lechmere theory to a great degree depends on exact, absolute times, when such really were not avalible in 1888.

Steve

[Geddy2112]

...Right along Foster, into Bath, across Brady and into Bucks Row .
A total distance from front door to Brown's Yard of approximately 240 yards. Walkable at 3.5 mph in a shade under two and a half minutes.

Thank you muchly sir. The questions were sort of rhetorical as I've read the reports, the statements and 'Inside Bucks Row.' (Most of it anyhoo)

This is the problem I've got and mentioned in the O.P. If Paul is to be believed then it put him in Bucks Row when PC Neil was there. There is no time to move away from Lechmere, go to the body, check the body, do the prop up conversation and the pulling down of the skirts etc then head off to meet with Mizen, which of course he also lied about. There are so many things not fitting here but we are led to believe Charles Lechmere is the dishonest one. I'm not so sure.

[Elamarna]

May I ask...

1) What time did Robert Paul leave home on the morning of the 31st Aug 1888?

2) What time did Robert Paul enter Bucks Row on the morning of 31st Aug 1888?

3) Since Christer and Edward have retraced and timed Lechmere's route to Bucks Row why have they not done the same for Robert Paul?

1.At the inquest Robert Paul claimed he left home just before a quarter to four .
This of course is totally subjective in that just before, could for some be 3.44 or for others 3.40.
And of course we have the continual issue of non syncronizied timekeeping, how did his time related to that of others.

2. In the Lloyds account, he claims it was exactly 3.45 when he passed up Bucks Row.

Where in the street he was Exactly, when it was Exactly 3.45 is unknown.

Again we have the issue of non syncronizied timekeeping , and also how exactly did Paul set the time?

At the East End Conference 2022, I presented a paper, which strongly suggested that not only were public clocks far from, to the minute reliable, but also there were none he could reference until after he passed the Board school with Lechmere.
He may have had a watch, but again how and what it was syncronizied with is a major issue.

We also have the issue that the wording
used in Lloyds Weekly News, may not have been the words of Paul himself, but those of the journalist. It seems that even some Lechmere theoriests now accept this is possible.
We also of course have the serious issue with both the time given, for leaving home, and passing along Bucks Row, that of how the times given in testimonies of the 3 police officers are completely in contradiction to those given by Paul.


3. There is no real need to retrace as there was really only one route Paul could have used.

Right along Foster, into Bath, across Brady and into Bucks Row .
A total distance from front door to Brown's Yard of approximately 240 yards. Walkable at 3.5 mph in a shade under two and a half minutes.

Steve

[Geddy2112]

May I ask...

1) What time did Robert Paul leave home on the morning of the 31st Aug 1888?

2) What time did Robert Paul enter Bucks Row on the morning of 31st Aug 1888?

3) Since Christer and Edward have retraced and timed Lechmere's route to Bucks Row why have they not done the same for Robert Paul?

[Geddy2112]

Yes the alternate name that would have been easily traced back to him. The Police would have to have been complete idiots to not know that Lechmere and Cross were one and the same. Also there's the rather weak point that he found a body.

Good day sir, that is the problem though. The Lechmere Theory experts, CH and Ed are now distancing themselves from the 'found' a body to him 'being found near the body.' It makes all the difference, apparently. My point being then is 'who found the body?' Someone had to surely. Lechmere gave the name he was known by at Pickfords. No lie, no conspiracy, no deception, no trying to wriggle out of being a murderer. The 'name' thing is the biggest pile of shite for pointing to guilt I've ever read and if you watch these YouTube videos they proclaim it like it's the rope that should hang him. Then you get the 'sheep' in the comments... 'oh yeah guilty AF, he gave a fake name.' Stupidity breeds stupidity.

[John Wheat]

I actually think there is more chance Paul is. Even going by the Lechmere Theory Rules he has broken them more than Charlie Boy. If it was not for the name change I doubt Lechmere would have been afforded a second look.

Hi Geddy2112

Yes the alternate name that would have been easily traced back to him. The Police would have to have been complete idiots to not know that Lechmere and Cross were one and the same. Also there's the rather weak point that he found a body.

Cheers John

[Geddy2112]

Hi Geddy2112

I agree with what your saying. Paul is just as likely to have been the Ripper as Lechmere. However there is bugger all chance either were the Ripper.

I actually think there is more chance Paul is. Even going by the Lechmere Theory Rules he has broken them more than Charlie Boy. If it was not for the name change I doubt Lechmere would have been afforded a second look.

[Geddy2112]

How does he do it? Strumming that bass without using a pick?

Referring to Mr Lee? Just a finger I'm afraid. No good bassists use a pick haha