Evidence to prove a suspect valid

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom

Maybe you have located a raft of previously undisclosed sources

Well, yeah. There was only about three known newspaper articles about Le Grand before I brought him back from the dead. There's now 300 or more. Not to mention the non-press stuff Debs has dug up.

Do you have a source for the WVC admitting that Le Grand worked for them?

Would a letter from Lusk work? But just for the record, the police report that states unequivocally that Le Grand was employed by the WVC is enough for myself, Debra Arif, Rob Clack, and...well...pretty much everyone but you. So I don't suppose a letter from 1889 referring to Le Grand's Oct. 1888 vigilance committee work would impress you much. But I'm absolutely convinced that Le Grand was employed by the WVC.

What does Batchelor have to do with the grapes?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Correct.
The desire to take the path of least resistance is stronger than the will to face problems that require a solution.
If you eliminate the grapes altogether you are left with just as many questions as if you acknowledge their existence.

Much emphasis is placed on what Dr Phillips said about there being no evidence of grapes in her stomach. But, after 38 hours what would he expect to see?

First, the 'fact' her handkerchief bore fruit stains supports the argument, and is consistent with a female spitting the seeds & skins into a handkerchief, as opposed to a man who might spit them into the street.

Secondly, the existence of the grape stalk, how it got there is debatable, but it was there.

Third, we have two witnesses who described her holding grapes in her right hand. Granted they were both foreigners, but Diemshitz was well able to speak clearly and make himself understood.
Kozebrodski, although speaking English "imperfectly", must have been able to recognise grapes when he saw them. I'm assuming grapes are sold in Poland just the same as England.

The newspapers continued to mention that Stride had grapes well into mid November, and the Arbeter Fraint published Friday Oct. 5th, after the grape issue had been dealt with at the Inquest repeated the story. What this indicates is that the issue was not settled at the inquest.



All the other victims (Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, & Kelly) were covered in clotted blood, but no-one else ever described those same clots as looking like "grapes".
Why?, because clotted blood looks just like clotted blood.

So what we can deduce is, that 'facts' do exist which are consistent with Stride having grapes.
Circumstantial evidence exists for either argument, but solid proof is lacking on both sides.
It will remain a debatable issue.

Diemshitz said she did not have anything in her hand. That's his official statement. The press statement has him saying she held grapes. It also has Dr. Blackwell saying Stride was almost decapitated. If you want to call the former 'evidence' then you have to call the later evidence as well, and then out goes the old chestnut that she had a 'shallow' cut.

A handkerchief with fruit stains in no way supports the notion she was eating grapes before her death. The idea that she spat out the skins is absolutely absurd. Or that she swallowed no seeds. There were no seeds, stems, or skins discovered in the area by the way.

Then you have the problem of the rain. The very thing that would have led Abberline to dispose of Packer's statement altogether. Or one of many things I should say, but pretty much the dead giveaway that he was lying.

Bottom line is, Packer did not sell Stride grapes. That was concluded then and nothing has changed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Facts

Hi Curious. Your statement that "it's not a proven fact" that there were no grapes is a loaded statement. It's not a proven fact that Stride wasn't lying on a bicycle. So from that perspective you're correct. But there's as much evidence as a bicycle being present as there are grapes. None of the relevant witnesses actually saw any grapes - Diemshitz, Spooner, the doctors, the police, etc. Le Grand believed there were grapes found because of what the press reported, so that's why he came up with that story. I'm guessing Packer did not sell cachous.

I see you're not familiar with Packer's various statements to the press and police. That's okay. That's why I'm writing a book. But it shocks me that anyone would still think there's any truth at all to the grape thing. It's rather like still thinking the women were all murdered by a left-handed man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Why has no-one mentioned the bicycle before! :-D. I am familiar with the fact that Packer changed his story and don't deny that he seemed to be a man who was easily manipulated. However, to say that it is a fact that he was lying when he said he sold grapes to Stride's companion is wrong. Not proven, as the Scots say.

I wish you all success with your book. I am sure it will make fascinating reading!

Best wishes,
C4

P.S. As for the killer being left-handed, most lefties were forced at the time from childhood to use their right hands, so perhaps we can land on ambidextrous?

[Lechmere]

Tom
I haven't suggested Batchelor was particularly significant in the grape story - I was picking you up on a comment you made about Batchelor's altercation with Le Grand.
I haven't seen the Le Grand Lusk letter that states that he worked for the WVC in October 1888, so that will be interesting.

[Lechmere]

Tom are you doing a lecture tour to promote the pre publication of your (Le Grand) book?

[Scott Nelson]

Did Le Grand know Albert Bachert?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

Why has no-one mentioned the bicycle before! :-D. I am familiar with the fact that Packer changed his story and don't deny that he seemed to be a man who was easily manipulated. However, to say that it is a fact that he was lying when he said he sold grapes to Stride's companion is wrong. Not proven, as the Scots say.

I wish you all success with your book. I am sure it will make fascinating reading!

Best wishes,
C4

P.S. As for the killer being left-handed, most lefties were forced at the time from childhood to use their right hands, so perhaps we can land on ambidextrous?

It's considered accurate to say that Packer is lying. To say that's not a fact is a matter of semantics. It's not a fact that Stride was murdered but the weight of the evidence suggests she was so take it as a working hypothesis that she was murdered. Same with Packer. A mountain of evidence pointing towards a lie with absolutely nothing to argue for him having told the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Did Le Grand know Albert Bachert?

There's no hard proof they knew each other but I've wondered for years if they might not have, for a few different reasons. Nothing so solid though that it compelled me to conclude they knew each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom
I haven't suggested Batchelor was particularly significant in the grape story - I was picking you up on a comment you made about Batchelor's altercation with Le Grand.

I haven't read about that episode for years. Whatever I have in my essay is correct.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom are you doing a lecture tour to promote the pre publication of your (Le Grand) book?
[ATTACH]15859[/ATTACH]

I'm Trevor Marriott's opening act.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Not self-inflicted

It's considered accurate to say that Packer is lying. To say that's not a fact is a matter of semantics. It's not a fact that Stride was murdered but the weight of the evidence suggests she was so take it as a working hypothesis that she was murdered. Same with Packer. A mountain of evidence pointing towards a lie with absolutely nothing to argue for him having told the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

We-ell - we do have the doctor's opinion that the wound couldn't have been self-inflicted. I suppose that does leave either accident or murder. Perhaps Stride could have tripped and fallen on a knife and a handy animal could have made off with the knife.....

No, I'll stop now.

All good wishes,
C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

We-ell - we do have the doctor's opinion that the wound couldn't have been self-inflicted. I suppose that does leave either accident or murder. Perhaps Stride could have tripped and fallen on a knife and a handy animal could have made off with the knife.....

No, I'll stop now.

All good wishes,
C4

Do you just make stuff up as you post? Of course the wound could have been self-inflicted. Much worse self-inflicted wounds have been reported and people continue to kill themselves by cutting their throats (think Charles Rocket from SNL). But no knife was found in her hand or nearby. Or maybe it was but the police covered that up along with the grapes?

My point is that the police and doctor concluded she was murdered. These same people concluded Packer was lying. If you want to say they were wrong or part of some vast cover-up on the one point, then why so easily accept their conclusions on the former? As for myself, I'm completely satisfied that Stride was murdered and equally as satisfied that Packer was a liar, as were contemporary investigators and all but maybe three of the current pack.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Joke

Do you just make stuff up as you post? Of course the wound could have been self-inflicted. Much worse self-inflicted wounds have been reported and people continue to kill themselves by cutting their throats (think Charles Rocket from SNL). But no knife was found in her hand or nearby. Or maybe it was but the police covered that up along with the grapes?

My point is that the police and doctor concluded she was murdered. These same people concluded Packer was lying. If you want to say they were wrong or part of some vast cover-up on the one point, then why so easily accept their conclusions on the former? As for myself, I'm completely satisfied that Stride was murdered and equally as satisfied that Packer was a liar, as were contemporary investigators and all but maybe three of the current pack.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Dear Tom,

Dr Phillips: "I have seen several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one, but then they have not divided the carotid artery." I was joking. Didn't realise it was against the rules. I shall attempt to rein in my sense of humour in the future and will put your rudeness down to the stress of publishing your book.

C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Dear Tom,

Dr Phillips: "I have seen several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one, but then they have not divided the carotid artery." I was joking. Didn't realise it was against the rules. I shall attempt to rein in my sense of humour in the future and will put your rudeness down to the stress of publishing your book.

C4

Hi Curious. No, I'm often blunt when being disagreed with on no or little grounds. I'm quite polite when corrected, however. I'm usually good at picking up a joke but didn't see one there. What Dr. Phillips is pointing out is that most people, suicide or murderer, don't know or think to divide the carotid. Whoever killed Stride knew what he was doing. One of the numerous factors that point to her having killed by the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Liz

Hi Curious. No, I'm often blunt when being disagreed with on no or little grounds. I'm quite polite when corrected, however. I'm usually good at picking up a joke but didn't see one there. What Dr. Phillips is pointing out is that most people, suicide or murderer, don't know or think to divide the carotid. Whoever killed Stride knew what he was doing. One of the numerous factors that point to her having killed by the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

No problem. Perhaps I should have had Liz slipping on a banana (or perhaps grape) skin before falling ;-)

We are on common ground as far as Liz is concerned, I definitely agree that all points to her being a Ripper victim.

Best wishes,
C4