Evidence to prove a suspect valid

[GUT]

G'Day Jon

I accept that it really doesn't make a difference to the case, but poor old Packer gets a bad rap, and if she really had grapes n her hand when found I still contend it supports his claim.

He and Smith may have seen different couples, ether of their memories might not have been that great because they weren't paying that much attention.

[Tom_Wescott]

Isaac Kozebrodski could barely speak English. Diemshitz spoke English very well. Supposedly, these two men told the press that Stride was holding grapes. However, that is not what they told the police. See Diemshitz's inquest testimony about what was and wasn't in Stride's hand.

As for Packer, same thing. See his first statement to the police about what happened that night. He did not sell any couple any grapes.

There are two possibilities about the grape story in the press. One is that nobody said it. It was press confusion. The other possibility is that somebody (probably Isaac) though he saw grapes but what he actually saw were the oblong blood clots which might have appeared as grapes under her closed hand (i.e. that she was holding them).

As for Packer, Le Grand came up with the nonsensical grape story and wrote it up for the Evening News. Packer couldn't keep two details straight.

There were zero signs of grapes in Stride's body, on Stride's person, or anywhere near the scene, except of course the stalk planted and 'found' by Le Grand.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

There were zero signs of grapes in Stride's body, on Stride's person, or anywhere near the scene, except of course the stalk planted and 'found' by Le Grand.

While I agree that much of what you say could be the explanation, can you point me evidence that Le Grand planted the stalk, I've frankly no recollection of ever reading that.

[Wickerman]

The existence of the grape stalk appears to be a matter of fact (Swanson believed it), but how it got there is speculation.

1 - We can view the presence of the grape stalk in Dutfields Yard as supporting evidence for the claims of Diemschitz, Kozebrodski (and Packer?).

2 - We can suggest the grape stalk was planted by someone.

3 - We can argue that the grape stalk is unrelated to the crime that night, Packer sold grapes, anyone could have recently discarded it.

[Wickerman]

..... Le Grand came up with the nonsensical grape story and wrote it up for the Evening News.

Hi Tom.

This is something that has always intrigued me. In a day when press articles were published unsigned, unless offered by the public, what indication do we have that LeGrand wrote this story?

[GUT]

Thanks Jon

I was particularly interested in Tom's statement that it was planted by LeGrand.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Gut,

He couldn't have depended on dumb luck for a grape stalk to have been stuck in the gutter, so it stands to reason he planted it. There is absolute zero question that he was a con man and this was his M.O. However, I'm assuming there was actually a grapestalk. We're pretty much taking Le Grand's word for that. But I would imagine he made sure there was a crowd around to see that there was one. Courtesy of Packer, of course, and tucked up his sleeve until the moment of reveal.

Hi Wick. Le Grand worked for various newspapers off and on.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

The existence of the grape stalk appears to be a matter of fact (Swanson believed it), but how it got there is speculation.

1 - We can view the presence of the grape stalk in Dutfields Yard as supporting evidence for the claims of Diemschitz, Kozebrodski (and Packer?).

2 - We can suggest the grape stalk was planted by someone.

3 - We can argue that the grape stalk is unrelated to the crime that night, Packer sold grapes, anyone could have recently discarded it.

I'll say again that Diemshitz stated there was nothing in that hand. So he has no "claims" that need supporting. Kozebrodski spoke bad English and it would appear hat Diemshitz often did the talking for him. He was not wanted by the coroner at the inquest. And it's a simple fact, from the mouth of Packer himself, that he did not sell any grapes to a couple shortly before the murder. The entire Packer/Grape thing was an invention of Charles Le Grand who supported it by 'finding' a grape stalk in the gutter of Dutfield's Yard. There's actually better evidence of the Jersey Devil than there is that Stride was eating grapes before her death or that the police and witnesses engaged in a large conspiracy to cover-up the fact that she was holding grapes when found. Come on, guys.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

There are many explanations - such as that Le Grand found a grape stalk and wove a story around it, latching onto pre-existing grape rumours.
My interpretation is that Le Grand was a chancer and keen to be seen as an efficient Private Detective to enhance his employment prospects. I don't think he was ever employed by the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee and was endeavouring to ingratiate himself into their good books. There was a report around this time of two men trying to gain employment from the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee and they rejected them.

[The Good Michael]

No disputation here, but when Packer was asked about having seen anyone, I thought it was directly referring to the time he was closing shop at 12:30. I think the officer used words to the effect of, "Did you see anyone at that time."

The story about selling grapes at 11 PM came out several days later and yes, could have been a set-up by LeGrand. Unfortunately for Packer, he hadn't recognized the deceased either at the mortuary, so he becomes pretty much unreliable.

Mike

[DRoy]

There are two possibilities about the grape story in the press. One is that nobody said it. It was press confusion. The other possibility is that somebody (probably Isaac) though he saw grapes but what he actually saw were the oblong blood clots which might have appeared as grapes under her closed hand (i.e. that she was holding them).

Tom,

Mortimer also told the press there were grapes but I don't believe she was quoted as saying she herself saw them. She could very well have been discussing what Isaac and Diemshitz had already said. I do find it interesting though that she brought it up at all.

Not that I believe the grape story, I believe you've killed it.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Hi Gut,

He couldn't have depended on dumb luck for a grape stalk to have been stuck in the gutter, so it stands to reason he planted it. There is absolute zero question that he was a con man and this was his M.O. However, I'm assuming there was actually a grapestalk. We're pretty much taking Le Grand's word for that. But I would imagine he made sure there was a crowd around to see that there was one. Courtesy of Packer, of course, and tucked up his sleeve until the moment of reveal.

Hi Wick. Le Grand worked for various newspapers off and on.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

What I am seeing Tom is this:

- LeGrand was a con-man, so he 'must' have planted the grape stalk.

- LeGrand was untrustworthy, so he 'must' have invented the lies about Packer, etc. in the press.

Something more dependable than a 'must' is required.

For Swanson to mention the grape stalk in his report means it existed, the fruit stains on Stride's handkerchief existed.
LeGrand didn't need to create some complex conspiracy, and he just as likely didn't.

[GUT]

G'Day all

What I don't see is why Le Grand would make up, of all things, a grape stalk.

[Lechmere]

I think we will have to wait for the book.

[Tom_Wescott]

There are many explanations - such as that Le Grand found a grape stalk and wove a story around it, latching onto pre-existing grape rumours.
My interpretation is that Le Grand was a chancer and keen to be seen as an efficient Private Detective to enhance his employment prospects. I don't think he was ever employed by the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee and was endeavouring to ingratiate himself into their good books. There was a report around this time of two men trying to gain employment from the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee and they rejected them.

Le Grand's employment by the WVC was confirmed by the police and is noted in their reports, so it's not a matter of speculation. There's other proof as well. I consider as absurd your idea that Le Grand first started digging around the dirty gutter of Dutfield's Yard and upon finding a grape stalk decided to weave a tale around it. But it's far less absurd than other ideas I've seen regarding the grapes. The finding of the grapestalk happened after the fact. We also have his involvement in the Batty Street lodger debacle to contend with.

Yes, there was a report that men applied to the WVC and were rejected...on the grounds that the WVC already had private investigators in their employ. And those men were Le Grand and Batchelor and possibly a third unnamed man.

For those interested, in the following year Le Grand would beat Batchelor in the open street as he seems to have been wont to do. Batchelor put a summons out on him but didn't pursue it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott