Evidence to prove a suspect valid

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

I will never know who did it, and finding the culprit does not especially interest me. What I want to know is
How the hell did he get these women to participate in their own murders without fighting or screaming? Because they did. Some of these women apparently laid down willingly. Which is unusual, even for streetwalkers. Maybe especially for streetwalkers. Somehow this guy managed to get a level of compliance from his victims that can usually only be achieved by putting a gun to a child's head. Literally. Or more than one guy...........

I swear to god if I ever get to that point, I quit. If I put up pictures, I absolutely quit.

It could've been a magic trick for lack of a better term. Serial killers tend to be good manipulators. Misdirection, confusion, hypnotization, and distraction are the tools of the magician as you well know. He might have just had a knack at doing that sort of thing. Most people are very unaware and easily manipulated. There is also fear. Might have been good at picking victims. Some people fight, some yell, some just pull a stupid face and offer no resistance. Still you are right, not everything adds up all nice and neat.

What's wrong with putting up pictures? Are you judging certain peoples?

[lynn cates]

nyet

Hello Errata.

"Some of these women apparently laid down willingly."

Don't think so.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

"Some of these women apparently laid down willingly."

Can you explain why you think that?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello Errata.

"Some of these women apparently laid down willingly."

Don't think so.

Cheers.
LC

Agreed. It would simplify somethings though. It is a hell of a hard sell.

[Errata]

Hello Errata.

"Some of these women apparently laid down willingly."

Don't think so.

Cheers.
LC

Of course they didn't. Who would? But the key word here is apparently. If any of these women screamed, they would have been heard. They didn't scream. If any of these women had fought, they would likely have been bloodied and bruised. Broken fingernails maybe, or blood under them from trying to get this guy to let them go. CERTAINLY they would have been dirty, covered in mud torn clothes, scraped to hell. The crimes scenes would have had furrows in the dirt, or heel marks, or drag marks.

And yet nothing. We can look at Annie Chapman, and we can say that besides the fact that there is no way she lays down for her killer, that there certainly wasn't any reason for her to lay down right where she was found. I can't even imagine her murderer would want her to lay down there. It's not exactly a spacious work area. But there she was. No drag marks, no sign of a struggle, nothing.

The total lack of evidence of any struggle says that she laid down willingly. But of course she didn't. Clearly he did something. But all of the somethings I know about that can force a woman down without a fight didn't happen either. She wasn't hit on the head. She wasn't dosed. She obviously wasn't tazed. I know of a lot of things that can render people helpless. They weren't used.

Apparently, they laid down willingly. Obviously they didn't. Two true statements that so far cannot be reconciled. I swear the more I think about it the more I think it has to be two guys.

[Errata]

What's wrong with putting up pictures? Are you judging certain peoples?

A picture of a plane in a living room is one thing. A picture of a woman murdered 130 ish years ago in a living room is something else entirely. I think my fiance would object.

[lynn cates]

bruising

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"If any of these women had fought, they would likely have been bloodied and bruised."

Polly and Annie WERE bruised.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

A picture of a plane in a living room is one thing. A picture of a woman murdered 130 ish years ago in a living room is something else entirely. I think my fiance would object.

Talk about fussy fiancee's.

[Observer]

I don't think she was choked out. One of the peculiarities of a choke hold is that since it puts pressure on the side of the neck, the voicebox is relatively unaffected. She definitely would have gotten out at least one good scream before losing consciousness. And even 10 seconds of fighting would have resulted in quite a bit of mud splashed up her dress. And if it was a tissue, and we know it was open, as soon as she dropped it all the cachous would have scattered.

It's like these women were hypnotized. Like they welcomed the knife. And I have never been able to explain that.

From The Times 1851

"Sir, I trust you will kindly afford me your valuable assistance towards placing that portion of the public residing in the suburban districts of London on their guard.

On Saturday 1st inst, when returning home at night, I was, without any warning, suddenly seized from behind by someone, who, placing the bend of his arm to my throat, and then clasping his right wrist with his left hand, thereby forming a powerful lever, succeeded in effectually strangling me for a time, and rendering me incapable of moving or even calling for assistance, although there were plenty at hand, whilst a second man easily rifled me of all he could find. I was then violently thrown on the ground, or rather I found myself lying there. When I came to my senses two passengers, one a neighbour, raised me up, when we were immediately joined by a policeman and by two more in less than a minute; but as I could not express myself coherently at first, the men had plenty of time to escape."

He then goes on to say that should this type of robbery,( i.e. garrotting,) have been perpetrated upon an elderly person, or one who was infirm, then the result may well have ended in death. So it seems as if the individual who wrote this letter was a relatively fit and young man.

I suggest Stride, in comparison, would have been very easily dealt with, should her assailant have been practised in the art of garrotting.

Also

And even 10 seconds of fighting would have resulted in quite a bit of mud splashed up her dress.

I quote the letter writer once more.

"succeeded in effectually strangling me for a time, and rendering me incapable of moving"

[mklhawley]

From The Times 1851

"Sir, I trust you will kindly afford me your valuable assistance towards placing that portion of the public residing in the suburban districts of London on their guard.

On Saturday 1st inst, when returning home at night, I was, without any warning, suddenly seized from behind by someone, who, placing the bend of his arm to my throat, and then clasping his right wrist with his left hand, thereby forming a powerful lever, succeeded in effectually strangling me for a time, and rendering me incapable of moving or even calling for assistance, although there were plenty at hand, whilst a second man easily rifled me of all he could find. I was then violently thrown on the ground, or rather I found myself lying there. When I came to my senses two passengers, one a neighbour, raised me up, when we were immediately joined by a policeman and by two more in less than a minute; but as I could not express myself coherently at first, the men had plenty of time to escape."

He then goes on to say that should this type of robbery,( i.e. garrotting,) have been perpetrated upon an elderly person, or one who was infirm, then the result may well have ended in death. So it seems as if the individual who wrote this letter was a relatively fit and young man.

I suggest Stride, in comparison, would have been very easily dealt with, should her assailant have been practised in the art of garrotting.

Also


I quote the letter writer once more.

"succeeded in effectually strangling me for a time, and rendering me incapable of moving"

In judo, we call this type of choke hadaka jime, and it can be applied in less than three seconds. Once applied, one immediately 'greys out'. Speaking is impossible.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Observer]

Hi Mike

Thanks for that.

Regards

Observer

[Errata]

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"If any of these women had fought, they would likely have been bloodied and bruised."

Polly and Annie WERE bruised.

Cheers.
LC

Not defensively. Not even in a manner that their attacker would have defended himself if they struck him. They have perimortem bruising (and Chapman has some suspicious scratches) from someone gripping their jaw tightly. Bruising that can occur even after death. Freshly dead bruises. Old dead does not.

The scratches under Chapman's ear may correspond to the fight she was in, or may have come from the attack. Or even from scratching herself if she had long nails and a persistent itch. But in any case, not from defending herself, nor from being defended against.

[Lechmere]

I'm sure I recall reading about someone involved in the case who prostituted themselves in someway to a Japanese... possibly a judoka.

[Errata]

In judo, we call this type of choke hadaka jime, and it can be applied in less than three seconds. Once applied, one immediately 'greys out'. Speaking is impossible.

Sincerely,

Mike

I accept that people sincerely believe this to be true, and may have even experienced it and this is their memory, but physiologically what you describe is impossible. 10 seconds is possible. Not three.

I have had this hold placed on me. I have had the police choke hold placed on me by a cop who was seriously trying to subdue me (long story). I have had martial arts instructors do this to me (even a judo instructor). I have even had the baton choke hold put on me. Some in the name of research, twice in actual struggles, some because my friends came home from class with cool tricks and wanted to try them on their friends.

Nobody goes down that fast. And here's why. If you expel all the breath in your lungs and hold it, most people must inhale 5 to 10 seconds later. And your need to inhale comes long before you even get dizzy, much less grey out. The oxygenated blood trapped in your head lasts about 20 seconds give or take. So it isn't lack of oxygen. And it actually takes a minute or more for someone to choke to unconsciousness due to airway blockage. So clearly it isn't that. And no choke hold stops all blood from reaching the brain. It just cuts off the major suppliers.

The only thing that causes the symptoms you describe, and those described in the letter produced by Mike is either a TIA (a mini stroke) or time contraction caused by experiencing a terrifying event. And both are real things. TIAs and Vagus nerve over excitation are why choke holds are banned in many martial arts competitions, and why the cops are not allowed to use them an more in many states. People do drop dead from that. But not a lot of people. And it's an effect that cannot be counted on by any attacker, who has no idea what the circulatory condition of his victim is. As for time contraction, well anytime you here a crime victim say "It all happened so fast..." Some things happen fast, but never as quickly as people perceive them. Some people also get time expansion. People who have car wrecks experience that before the wreck.

Nothing about any choke hold prevents a person from moving their arms and legs. If the attacker is sufficiently strong and heavy it will prevent them from going anywhere, maybe even keep their feet off the ground, but not from kicking or trying to pry the arm off their throat. The author of the letter certainly had nothing preventing him from moving in those ways. Any hold or condition that would cause paralysis would render him insensible. And he would have no memory of actually being robbed. And a bar hold would keep him from shouting, but would not put pressure on his arteries, so he would not have any ischemic symptoms. He might have passed out after a minute or so, but nothing prevented him fighting. Except of course fear. He froze. It's perfectly natural. Not something most men admit to even now, much less Victorian gentlemen, but he froze.

[lynn cates]

black eye

Hello Errata. Thanks.

Yes, I see what you mean. Of course, my lad had a black eye when taken into custody.

Defensive?

Cheers.
LC