Jack The Ripper solved?

[Ben]

Absolutely, Tom.

There was a great deal of press nonsense that circulated around the 10th November, which Hutchinson could have "borrowed" from, most notably this from the Daily News:

There are conflicting statements as to when the woman was last seen alive, but that upon which most reliance appears to be placed is that of a young woman, an associate of the deceased, who states that at about half past 10 o'clock on Thursday night she met the murdered woman at the corner of Dorset street. Kelly informed her that she had no money, and it was then she said that if she could not get any she would never go out any more, but would do away with herself. Soon after they parted, and a man who is described as respectably dressed came up and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money. The man accompanied the woman to her lodgings, which are on the second floor, the little boy being sent to a neighbour's house.

In addition to the striking similarity with Hutchinson's account (which he gave two days later), it is potentially significant that "murdered woman Kelly" is a verbatim quote from Hutchinson.

All the best,
Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

A well-dressed man was spotted around Millers Court prior to Hutchinson coming forward. That's in the papers. This could have been what informed Hutch's story. You don't go forward with a fake story without at least trying to make it appear legitimate. And how do you do that? You read the papers.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Even after contemporary sources, quotes, personal experiences, and the like have been provided, Ben just refuses to accept the fact. Though his intent is plain to see, Ben continues to try stamp out any mention of a suspect of respectable appearance for fear the man seen by Hutchinson is given, in Ben's view, undue credit.

Fear? Well, sometimes people do scare me with the extent of their nonsense, yes, but being misrepresented is just annoying, really, rather than terrifying. I've neither said nor thought that respectably-dressed or middle class people never ventured into Whitechapel. I've said it's exceptionally unlikely that they'd saunter the streets in expensive-looking clothes and accessories during the small hours. I've also observed that the occasional top hat in Whitechapel is not an excuse for depicting the ripper as having worn one.

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

I chimed in originally because there seemed to be a suggestion that the odd top hat on the streets of the 1888 East End somehow justifies the iconic image of Jack the Ripper as a "toff" in a top hat and cape, as featured on far too many paperbacks and DVD cases. I'm simply pointing out that it does nothing of the sort; that (a) there are no reliable descriptions from police witnesses that remotely implicate a man of that appearance, and (b) the number of well-dressed top-hatted man in the East End were utterly dwarfed in terms of numbers by the vast majority group, which consisted of men in ordinary work clothes. I don't see the problem with simply acknowledging that a top-hatted "toff", despite being recognized by serious researchers as total nonsense, is a more "interesting" solution to the Jack the Ripper mystery and is probably more visually striking to stick on the front covers of books to aid in sales etc.

As I've already mentioned, the Pavilion Theatre was not the exclusive reserve of Hooray Henrys swanning in from the West End. It catered primarily for local east-enders, with specific attention paid to the theatrical tastes of the very largely represented (and otherwise persecuted) Jewish community.

A flashy East End type would have had no trouble togging himself up from the ol' clo' stalls in the Jews' Market (as Petticoat Lane was also known), and adding cheap but gaudy accessories.

He could have done, yes, but why would he?

Was his inner compulsion to dress as flashily as possible really so strong that he thought it worth the huge risks attached to doing so at that time and place, when there was practically nobody around to appreciate or marvel at his sartorial splendour?

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Hi caz,my dad was born in Shoreditch 50 years after the ripper murders and he has always stated that he and his family and friends would avoid going into whitechapel at all costs.

And most hard working, peace loving working class people who want no trouble said the same thing, but this issue is not concerning the families of the area, it concerns the number of men who wore the top hat while walking through the area. Though what this actually has to do with the real killer is the stuff of fiction.

[Wickerman]

Hello Caz.

I think it's all a matter of degrees. Ben is arguing against the likelihood of the upper classes mingling with the great unwashed of Whitechapel on the meanest streets in the wee small hours, and therefore against the likelihood of the ripper coming from the upper classes to ply his gory trade there, dressed up to the nines.

But the thing is, I don't think anyone would seriously argue with that.

No-one should, except perhaps those who still cling to some version of a Royal Conspiracy.

What most people seem to be pointing out is the fact that Whitechapel was most certainly not out of bounds to all sorts of educated, reasonably well off, respectably dressed, middle class professionals and businessmen, some in the habit of wearing top hats, all more than capable of dressing down if they didn't want to attract negative attention.

Even after contemporary sources, quotes, personal experiences, and the like have been provided, Ben just refuses to accept the fact. Though his intent is plain to see, Ben continues to try stamp out any mention of a suspect of respectable appearance for fear the man seen by Hutchinson is given, in Ben's view, undue credit.
The reality is considerably different.

[Lechmere]

An area can change a lot in 50 years - Brixton as middle class in the early 1950s.
I doubt that top hats were that rare.

[pinkmoon]

I think it's all a matter of degrees. Ben is arguing against the likelihood of the upper classes mingling with the great unwashed of Whitechapel on the meanest streets in the wee small hours, and therefore against the likelihood of the ripper coming from the upper classes to ply his gory trade there, dressed up to the nines.

But the thing is, I don't think anyone would seriously argue with that. What most people seem to be pointing out is the fact that Whitechapel was most certainly not out of bounds to all sorts of educated, reasonably well off, respectably dressed, middle class professionals and businessmen, some in the habit of wearing top hats, all more than capable of dressing down if they didn't want to attract negative attention.

The artist, actor and illustrator Weedon Grossmith wasn't an upper class toff exactly, but he was 'posh' and upper middle class, took great pride in his appearance, frequented the West End clubs and so on, yet he and his wife, and their upper middle class friends and associates, were happy to put on plays at the Pavilion Theatre, close to Buck's Row, and even Sir Henry Irving attended a first night there in the 1890s.

To read many of Ben's posts, you'd think anyone fool enough to do this would be lucky to emerge alive from the experience.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi caz,my dad was born in Shoreditch 50 years after the ripper murders and he has always stated that he and his family and friends would avoid going into whitechapel at all costs.What we have to remember what ever class our killer was from he was armed with a knife and quite prepared to use it.

[Wickerman]

Hi Caz
I agree. I just have trouble beleiving one would be out and about at that TIME in the district.

Why wouldn't a local resident, part-time confidence trickster, and small-time thief be out and about at that time?
Whitechapel High St. was busy all night long, otherwise those kerb-side stall holders would be wasting their time.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Caz
I agree. I just have trouble beleiving one would be out and about at that TIME in the district.

Abby
You are quite correct anyone on their own no matter how they were dressed at that time of the morning walking the back streets un armed would be fair game.

[Abby Normal]

Well Abby, that's not really what I was saying, was it? Although I don't expect the Pavilion closed for the night very early, despite it being in a dodgy area.

The man Hutch described seems to have been more Del Boy than Burlington Bertie. A flashy East End type would have had no trouble togging himself up from the ol' clo' stalls in the Jews' Market (as Petticoat Lane was also known), and adding cheap but gaudy accessories. The local villains, according to one Grossmith anecdote, tended to go to the West End looking for tipsy toffs to fleece, knowing that the pickings would be considerably richer there in both senses.

I'm not saying that Hutch's Flash Harry existed, nor that Hutch could easily have described him in such detail if he did. And I'm not saying this man ought to be considered a suspect. I'm saying there is no reason why men of a similar description would not have been a feature of the district.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
I agree. I just have trouble beleiving one would be out and about at that TIME in the district.

[caz]

Well Abby, that's not really what I was saying, was it? Although I don't expect the Pavilion closed for the night very early, despite it being in a dodgy area.

The man Hutch described seems to have been more Del Boy than Burlington Bertie. A flashy East End type would have had no trouble togging himself up from the ol' clo' stalls in the Jews' Market (as Petticoat Lane was also known), and adding cheap but gaudy accessories. The local villains, according to one Grossmith anecdote, tended to go to the West End looking for tipsy toffs to fleece, knowing that the pickings would be considerably richer there in both senses.

I'm not saying that Hutch's Flash Harry existed, nor that Hutch could easily have described him in such detail if he did. And I'm not saying this man ought to be considered a suspect. I'm saying there is no reason why men of a similar description would not have been a feature of the district.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Yeah but at 2:00 am? in one of the worst parts of town? With gold chains, pins, spats? Possible but not very likely.

[caz]

I think it's all a matter of degrees. Ben is arguing against the likelihood of the upper classes mingling with the great unwashed of Whitechapel on the meanest streets in the wee small hours, and therefore against the likelihood of the ripper coming from the upper classes to ply his gory trade there, dressed up to the nines.

But the thing is, I don't think anyone would seriously argue with that. What most people seem to be pointing out is the fact that Whitechapel was most certainly not out of bounds to all sorts of educated, reasonably well off, respectably dressed, middle class professionals and businessmen, some in the habit of wearing top hats, all more than capable of dressing down if they didn't want to attract negative attention.

The artist, actor and illustrator Weedon Grossmith wasn't an upper class toff exactly, but he was 'posh' and upper middle class, took great pride in his appearance, frequented the West End clubs and so on, yet he and his wife, and their upper middle class friends and associates, were happy to put on plays at the Pavilion Theatre, close to Buck's Row, and even Sir Henry Irving attended a first night there in the 1890s.

To read many of Ben's posts, you'd think anyone fool enough to do this would be lucky to emerge alive from the experience.

Love,

Caz
X

[Tom_Wescott]

For what it's worth, John McCarthy was said to keep up with fashion and to dress 'gentlemanly'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott