Was the killer a jew

[Errata]

yes, sorry Lynn. I meant the anarchists...the young males, probably didn't care much because the established Jewry was also the enemy. My construction was confusing.

Mike

It was the anarchy the Jewish population objected to, not so much the atheism. Think about it this way. 90 percent of the Jewish immigrants in London fled persecution of some sort or another. The best defense for this sort of thing is to keep your head down, and don't attract attention. Theres actually a phrase for this in Yiddish that I don't remember... Rivkah might. So, they come to London, they work hard, they don't complain, they don't attract attention, and then suddenly from out of their number springs a bunch of thugs who go around beating people and setting off bombs and what have you.

It's like in those horror movies where the monster is close and everyone is silent and strained and parents have their hands over their children's mouths, etc. and then the guy who objected to every reasonable thing in the movie suddenly loses it and starts screaming about how he has to get out of here and how he's not just going to sit there and die etc...

Anarchists were that guy. In the horror movie he would be stabbed in the heart to shut him up to save everyone else. In Victorian London there were two reactions. Dog pile on top of them to shut them up, or move as far away from them as possible. I mean, who cares whether or not the guy attracting the monsters believes in god? As long as he shuts up and doesn't bring the monster down on top of everyone, he can worship the ghost of Ulysses S Grant for all anyone cares.

Which is not to say mama wanted her boy to grow up to be an atheist, but at least he's not converting to something else. Even today people feel that Atheism can be recovered from. And I suppose some do. But it's not the slammed door that conversion to Church of England would have been.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Errata

Another nice post...I rather get the impression that many in the longer established Sephardic community tended to look down somewhat on the newly arrived Eastern Europeans for similar reasons of drawing attention/dragging down....

Which is not to say mama wanted her boy to grow up to be an atheist, but at least he's not converting to something else. Even today people feel that Atheism can be recovered from. And I suppose some do. But it's not the slammed door that conversion to Church of England would have been.

Yes and you've only got to look at Benjamin Disraeli to see where that sort of thing could get you!

All the best

Dave

[Errata]

Hi Errata

Another nice post...I rather get the impression that many in the longer established Sephardic community tended to look down somewhat on the newly arrived Eastern Europeans for similar reasons of drawing attention/dragging down....



Yes and you've only got to look at Benjamin Disraeli to see where that sort of thing could get you!

All the best

Dave

Sephardim are an entirely different culture than Askenazi. Different traditions, different emphases, different folklore, different secondary symbols, different pronunciation of Hebrew, and of course they did not speak Yiddish. They had to cross paths at some point to judge the incoming Ashkenazi, and they didn't attend the same synagogues (mostly). Basically, they had to find the Askenazi to judge them, and they were not really operating in the same circles on a street level. The Rabbis talked to each other, but you are basically talking about expecting Russians and Poles to feel kinship with North Africans and Spaniards. And that's a cultural divide that religion probably will not be able to breech.

[caz]

Hi All,

If most serial killers inherently feel like outsiders, in whichever community they find themselves (at least those who are well aware, as I presume the ripper must have been, that their behaviour is considered by the rest of society to be off the scale, legally, socially and morally), I'm not sure that being part of a minority group, such as Jewish or Irish, and subjected to the resulting prejudices and restrictions that would have come with the territory, would have made much if any difference to young Jack's view of the world and what made him turn his violent fantasies into reality. He was always going to be in a minority group of one regardless.

So is there any particular reason why the chances of a local ripper having been Jewish are not going to be 40/60 against, in line with Colin's stated 40% of Whitechapel's population at the time having been Jewish?

If not, I would say there is a 60% chance the ripper was not Jewish. But that percentage could rise if he was not living or working among his victims at the time, but had perhaps managed to work or con his way out of the worst streets at some point, and so was familiar with them and knew how to engage with the local unfortunates and earn their trust if necessary.

The witness accounts are just too contradictory to help much, and we don't even know for sure that any of them describe the man (or one of the men) who only ever committed murder when completely alone with his victim.

Love,

Caz
X

[Errata]

Hi All,

If most serial killers inherently feel like outsiders, in whichever community they find themselves (at least those who are well aware, as I presume the ripper must have been, that their behaviour is considered by the rest of society to be off the scale, legally, socially and morally), I'm not sure that being part of a minority group, such as Jewish or Irish, and subjected to the resulting prejudices and restrictions that would have come with the territory, would have made much if any difference to young Jack's view of the world and what made him turn his violent fantasies into reality. He was always going to be in a minority group of one regardless.

So is there any particular reason why the chances of a local ripper having been Jewish are not going to be 40/60 against, in line with Colin's stated 40% of Whitechapel's population at the time having been Jewish?

If not, I would say there is a 60% chance the ripper was not Jewish. But that percentage could rise if he was not living or working among his victims at the time, but had perhaps managed to work or con his way out of the worst streets at some point, and so was familiar with them and knew how to engage with the local unfortunates and earn their trust if necessary.

The witness accounts are just too contradictory to help much, and we don't even know for sure that any of them describe the man (or one of the men) who only ever committed murder when completely alone with his victim.

Love,

Caz
X

I would go further and say there is a far less chance of Jack being Jewish. Not because of the population, but because of the sociology. The age at which Jewish children were capable of independence is significantly higher than the age of C of E kids. Consequently, Jewish children, even adults, were watched over and even cared for by family a lot longer. In other words, they were watched for longer. Kids who are watched for longer are far more likely to conform to society's ideals. Since Jewish children were not particularly considered capable of independence until they married, there were a fair amount of Jewish adults who had a lot of people pay attention to their comings and goings.

[Roy Corduroy]

That's a good point, Errata.

Joseph Lis (Silver) being a notable exception of course.

Roy

[DVV]

What does it mean ?
That Jews are less likely than others to become serial killers ? or gangsters ? or thieves ?
Yes. That's what it means.

[DVV]

I have strong evidence that the Whitechapel Murderer wasn't Corsican.
Corsicans were eating figatelli and donkey sausages at the time the murders were committed.

[Errata]

What does it mean ?
That Jews are less likely than others to become serial killers ? or gangsters ? or thieves ?
Yes. That's what it means.

No, Jews are as likely to be those things as anyone else. The problem you get with the Ripper murders is that it's hard to work that kind of schedule around a family. So a single Jack has time to devote to his... hobby that a family man might not have. Single men in the CofE London majority moved out on their own at a certain age, regardless of their marital status. Jewish men of the same age went from parents to siblings to wives. Which means bossy people who are putting a roof over your head and demanding a certain amount of respect want to know what you are doing all hours of the night.. and complain about it to anyone who will listen.

It's not a question of character. It's a question of availability. And it was rare that a youngish Jewish man lived alone or was not accounted for. Personally I think it sounds awful, but I'm a girl who likes my space.

[DVV]

Ok, I see your point, although there must have Jewish lonely dossers here and there, and they would have ample opportunities to kill as the Ripper did.

Personally, I do not think witnesses are useless. I'm not impressed by Mrs Long who never saw the man and was in my opinion under the influence of the Leather Apron buzz. And I don't believe for a moment that Astrakhan has ever existed.

I therefore don't think the killer was Jewish.

[Errata]

Ok, I see your point, although there must have Jewish lonely dossers here and there, and they would have ample opportunities to kill as the Ripper did.

Personally, I do not think witnesses are useless. I'm not impressed by Mrs Long who never saw the man and was in my opinion under the influence of the Leather Apron buzz. And I don't believe for a moment that Astrakhan has ever existed.

I therefore don't think the killer was Jewish.

There certainly would have been. Not every immigrant came over with family. And Jack could have been one of those guys, but if we are looking at "lonely dossers" as our general suspect pool, we are no longer looking at a 60/40 population split. Now we are looking at something more like 80/20 or less. Thus less likely to be Jewish than the original 40% chance.