Lechmere versus Richardson.

[rjpalmer]

I never cease to be amazed at the way white anglophone attitudes to the police manifest all the irrational characteristics of a religion multiplied by an addiction.

What an appalling example of pseudo-intellectual posturing. 'White anglophone attitudes'? The weird political leanings of the Lechmere theorists is a topic that interests me, but I'll save that for another time.

Who is to say that I was even praising the police or taking their side? As a matter of fact, I wasn't--not particularly. The run ins I've had with the police have always involved officers who were deeply suspicious--whether they had a right to be suspicious or not. That's just a fact of life.

The fact that you think two men could walk through the slums at 3.45 in the morning and tell a policeman that a woman needed his attention in the next street, and on eventually going there, the policeman finds the woman murdered and mutilated and yet it never dawns on him to question or look skeptically at those two men shows that you don't inhabit the real world--and probably have never stepped foot in a slum in your life--but merely dwell inside some pseudo-intellectual fantasy of your own making.

[GBinOz]

So….yes we can say ‘what if’ Lechmere had arrived at the scene earlier? He could have killed her? Correct but even then there’s a huge ‘but.’

If he’d left the house at 3.25 and arrived at Bucks Row at 3.33 and the murder took 2 minutes tops, why was he still there when Paul arrived? Did he fancy a cigarette and a quick read of the paper before moving on to works? And then we could ask ‘well he could have left the house at 3.00 or 2.30 for all that we know?’ True, but did he loiter around in Bucks Row on the off chance of a victim turning up? Or did he find one somewhere else and for some unfathomably bizarre reason bring her back to the spot that he himself passed everyday at that time on the way to work? No, all that we know is that we cannot construe a gap. Therefore this should never be used when discussing these events and the deliberate leaving out of ‘about’ should be acknowledged but of course it won’t be.

Hi Herlock,

It seems to me that an inordinate amount of time has been dedicated to what time CAL left home, when all we have is what time he said he left home. IF he was guilty he would have chosen a time that appeared reasonable. It is unlikely that he discovered Polly in Bucks Row, more likely that he picked her up in Whitechapel Road but she would have taken him to Bucks Row. There can't be a "gap" when we can't know the actual start time.

While I'm fence sitting on CAL, I agree with your proposal that there is also reason to scrutinise Richardson. He originally told the police that he just looked into the yard (confirmed by his mother), then later invented sitting on the step trimming leather from his boot, and when asked by the coroner for the knife involved produced a blunt rusty knife with no handle saying that he hadn't actually succeeded in trimming the leather and had finished that job at work with another knife. Additions and augmentations to testimony always creates suspicion. I think all that saved him from further scrutiny was the testimony of Long and Cadoche, which I found to be flimsy.

Cheers, George

[Paddy Goose]

Mark, Gary, both of you said to me the coroner suggested the police conduct a house to house on Buck's Row. Neither of you made it clear whether you thought the police in fact did conduct the house to house as suggested.

Because in looking further into the thread Evidence of Innocence on Feb 4, I saw this you posted Gary -

There are numerous references to the investigations undertaken by the police in the Nichols and Chapman cases, but no mention of any into ‘Cross’ or Paul.

Look at the HO index to the Nichols file compiled on 25/10/1888:

(The numbers are page numbers)

And you showed this image



Gary, or anyone - are you proposing this list includes the house to house inquiries on Buck's Row suggested by the Coroner? Or not.

Because Gary this was the one thing you reiterated to me after I had initially replied to Mark. Just this one thing. I don't understand the level of police incompetence you are suggesting, either of you. Was it

(a) the police had to be told or rather suggested to conduct the house to house in Buck's Row
or
(b) they blew off the coroner's suggestion and never bothered to conduct the house to house anyway

[SuperShodan]

I don't have a problem with Lech being a suspect. It is the utter nonsense BS fabrication that goes along with him that is just so stupid. Fictitious statements about his character, his dislike of Jews, domineering mother, his fantasy illness in October and so on. From being seen standing where he said he was, we have this quarter century reign of terror based on nothing. No evidence he even used prostitutes, which I think is a basic requirement in this case I think, or even owned or carried a knife day-to-day.

Yes a suspect, but cut out all the bull. It was you I believe (but may be wrong so apologies if so), that had Lechmere chalking up 23 victims/attacks. Pure fiction based on no character traits or known behaviours that this is even remotely possible.

I don’t know what Lechmere thought of Jewish immigration. In terms of his character we can only guess. I suspect like many serial killers he was outwardly completely normal. It’s partly why they are so hard to catch.

For example, Dennis Neilson was a civil servant who had previously been a policeman. A model citizen if ever there was one. However, he had body parts in bags in his wardrobe, he flushed bits down the toilet and boiled peoples heads in pots. He still attracted no attention whatsoever and had a good job and an ordinary life. So Lechmere’s character isn’t a factor for me. Being a hardworking family man in no way excludes him from being a suspect. I do wonder about the move in June 1888 though. He moved his large family into just 4 rooms, and he moved away from where he had lived for many years. I think something happened, why else would he decant to a smaller home in Doveton Street ?

Moving on, Lechmere’s domineering mother is a suggestion. It’s possible. It could be the opposite, he could be a mummy’s boy. He lived with his mother even after he got married and prior to June 1888 never lived more than a street away from her.

I’ve never heard about a mystery illness but I would be interested in the theory.

However, the point is that his relationship with his mother, his character, a potential illness and such like is just speculation, and it’s not why I think Lechmere is JTR. I don’t recall any Lechmere researcher basing his candidacy on any of these factors. I certainly don’t.

Lastly, the 23 victims. I have a list of 23 potential JTR attacks. These are just my notes and I doubt if all of them are JTR. My position is that the C5 gives us a misleading picture. In particular looking for suspects who were incarcerated or died shortly after MJK (like Druitt) will likely lead us down dead ends. I also think that Nichols was definitely not his first murder.

[Mark J D]

Thanks, when did he move? Do we know the date?

June 1888, to judge from the date we know his kids changed school.

M.

[Paddy Goose]

[/b][/i]



m.

Thanks, when did he move? Do we know the date?

[Paddy Goose]

Paddy, you haven't understood a single thing I've said. That's not an insult: I say it with sadness and a real sense of failure. I'm sure you're a decent guy; but we're not going to get anywhere. So let's just forget it, okay? You win.

Thanks.

M.

Yes it is certainly an insult that you state I don't "understand" a single thing you've said.

But that is simply your "posting" personality. To denigrate.

Mark I'm sure you are a decent guy too. None of this is personal in any way.

Pads

[Mark J D]

>> i don’t recall anyone stating that lechmere disliked jews. Perhaps you can unearth that for us. <<

m.

[Paddy Goose]

Paddy,

It was the coroner who picked up on the fact that the police did not go house to house in Buck’s Row and politely suggested they did so.

Gary

Thanks Gary, and yes I knew that. I'm sure the police took the coroner's suggestion to heart. And if we don't know the results of their enquires house to house in Buck's Row, I can make an educated guess as to where those results were. In police notebooks.

You recall Gary I have been mocked here for even mentioning the term police notebooks on Lechmere threads.

[drstrange169]

>> I don’t recall anyone stating that Lechmere disliked Jews. Perhaps you can unearth that for us. <<


"I've speculated before that Lech might have been a raging antisemite desperate to get out of an increasingly Jewish area."

Mark J D Evidence of innocence thread

[drstrange169]

Caveat warning! I don't know if this is true, I read it on a facebook group about a month ago.

The writer claimed Richardson's daughter was born in Backchurch Lane.

[Mark J D]

No I think I am getting the gist of exactly what you are saying. But again, you continue to talk down to me. To mock me.

Paddy, you haven't understood a single thing I've said. That's not an insult: I say it with sadness and a real sense of failure. I'm sure you're a decent guy; but we're not going to get anywhere. So let's just forget it, okay? You win.

Thanks.

M.

[MrBarnett]

What a very condescending thing to say to me.



I don't need your help. I don't bleap anything about Mandy because I've never heard that quote.

You said all police then and now. All. That includes Evans and Rumbelow. I am stating facts.



Again I am subjected to more of you talking down to me.



I said nothing of the kind. You are putting words in my mouth.



This is where Evans & Rumbelow come in. Two policemen who devoted a significant portion of their time to studying the Whitechapel murders and published the book Scotland Yard Investigates which I read. Towards the end they discussed the state of what has survived in terms of the case files and what is lost, which is the police notebooks. And of course, those notebooks are precisely where the details of any police inquires into Lechmere would have been.

But I am mocked when I so much as mention the term police notebooks here. Now I see why. Evans and Rumbelow are thought of as nothing more than



In reply to my question to you that you labelled Lechmere an anti semite you answered -

.

Since, as I explained in my post, I can't locate where you said that, which thread. Could you please explain again why you think Lechmere is an anti semite? Or just let me ask you this- did it have anything to do with him relocating his residence from St Georges to Bethnal Green?



No I think I am getting the gist of exactly what you are saying. But again, you continue to talk down to me. To mock me.

Paddy,

It was the coroner who picked up on the fact that the police did not go house to house in Buck’s Row and politely suggested they did so.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

Evasive, but ok.

You seem unable to understand the point that I was making. I don’t think that Richardson was the ripper. I’ve presented the findings in the first post. That is all that’s required. What I’ve said is that there’s more there to make anyone suspicious of Richardson than there is for Lechmere. I’m not interested in the geographical manipulations. It’s nonsense imo. You can put weight in it if you want to that’s up to you but the location of his mothers house is as relevant as his shoe size.

Im not ‘shrieking’ that Lechmere can’t be guilty. I don’t know who the ripper was and I’ve lost count of the amount of times that I’ve said that we cannot dismiss Lechmere with evidence. In fact there are relatively few suspects (almost none in fact) that we can entirely dismiss. It’s always going to be about likelihoods and to weight these up we look at for and against.

Is there anything suspicious about the time that he arrived - no.
Did he do anything suspicious when Paul arrived - no.
Did he try and avoid going for a Constable - no.
Did he act suspiciously around Mizen - there is a dispute on who said what but Mizen didn’t find him suspicious - no.
Did he avoid the Inquest or avoid being found by the Police - no.
Do we have any evidence of a violent nature - no.
Do we have any evidence that he consorted with prostitutes - no.
Is it likely that a man would butcher a prostitute 15 minutes from when he was due at work - no.
Is it likely that a man who hang around, potentially with blood on him and carrying a bloody knife, when he had the chance to escape - no.

And so Lechmere is an unlikely killer.

There you go again, Mike. You’ve moved on from the absurdity of aunt Nellie, and now present us with your insightful opinion on geographical profiling being as relevant as shoe size.

And for the umpteenth time, we are not just talking talking about where his mother lived, we are talking about the area where he had spent most of his life up to 1889.

If, and of course it’s by no means certain, the torso was conveyed to the Pinchin Street arch on foot, then the killer must have been someone with access to premises nearby.

[Paddy Goose]

You really have difficulty grasping this stuff, don't you?

What a very condescending thing to say to me.

Sadly, there really is no way of helping someone whose reaction -- upon having their attention drawn to the historical and worsening catastrophe that is UK policing -- is merely to bleat some version of 'But what about Mandy's husband? He's such a nice bloke!' (Actual quotation.)

I don't need your help. I don't bleap anything about Mandy because I've never heard that quote.

You said all police then and now. All. That includes Evans and Rumbelow. I am stating facts.

I certainly can't fault your ability to quote.

Again I am subjected to more of you talking down to me.

Are you telling us all that what I wrote there isn't how Lechmere would have looked to the Met of his day? Not Irish, not Jewish, not Gypsy, not otherwise foreign, not indigent... Hell, he doesn't even have dissimilar ears and a wide neck, as per the latest criminal anthropology. Nothing to see there, Constable.

I said nothing of the kind. You are putting words in my mouth.

Go back to not interviewing the residents of Buck's Row...

This is where Evans & Rumbelow come in. Two policemen who devoted a significant portion of their time to studying the Whitechapel murders and published the book Scotland Yard Investigates which I read. Towards the end they discussed the state of what has survived in terms of the case files and what is lost, which is the police notebooks. And of course, those notebooks are precisely where the details of any police inquires into Lechmere would have been.

But I am mocked when I so much as mention the term police notebooks here. Now I see why. Evans and Rumbelow are thought of as nothing more than

the racist, misogynist boot-boys of private wealth and the violent state

In reply to my question to you that you labelled Lechmere an anti semite you answered -

Wasn't that a speculative scenario attempting to provide a credible rationale for known data and to suggest avenues for further enquiry?

Don't bother yourself: the answer is 'yes'

.

Since, as I explained in my post, I can't locate where you said that, which thread. Could you please explain again why you think Lechmere is an anti semite? Or just let me ask you this- did it have anything to do with him relocating his residence from St Georges to Bethnal Green?

You really have difficulty grasping this stuff as well, don't you?

No I think I am getting the gist of exactly what you are saying. But again, you continue to talk down to me. To mock me.