BSM & Sailor Man : one and the same ?

[DVV]

There may be justification for questioning whether the Mitre Sq. suspect truly looked like a sailor.

That is it, Jon.
It has been pointed out many times. No suspect described on Nov 30 was believed to have been a sailor.
Marshall's man, although having a cap "of the sort that a sailor would wear", had "the appearance of a clerk rater than a manual worker".

All the best

[Jonathan H]

Interesting.

Certainly the police do not seem to have used Schwartz to the same degree as they did Lawende, apparently twice.

The second time he affirmed, again apparently to William Grant (aka Grainger) who, according to the relevant press article, arguably does not resemble BSM.

And yes, Lawende's Jack-the-Seaman bears a generic resemblance to Druitt.

[Damaso Marte]

I believe that Sailor Man existed, and BSM did not, so no I do not think they are the same.

[lynn cates]

Ich weiss nicht.

Hello Abby. Thanks.

I'm afraid I DON'T see what you mean.

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

I am arguing that the man seen pushing Stride does not match Lawende's description of a lither, fairer figure with Eddowes.

Full stop -- they are unlikely to be the same man.

Now, since the man Lawende described was believed likely to have killed his victim with a knife, and since Schwartz in another primary source had described a Gentile-featured figure with a knife (and with a moustache) it is hardly much of a leap to theorise that this man may be the same one.

Except here, of course, where it is not only rejected -- fair enough -- but vehemently and apoplectically rejected as 'nonsense!

[Abby Normal]

Hello Greg

"As others have stated, we go from a staggering lunatic to a calm Popeye the Sailor in 45 minutes.....?"

Oh, come now. Do play along. This is ripperology.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
You enjoy role playing so try this. Do 3 or 4 pushups while yelling lipski then stand up turn around and start walking. How long does it take you to assume a calm demeaner?

See what I mean?

[Abby Normal]

Knifeman's too tall for Sailor Man isn't he...?



As others have stated, we go from a staggering lunatic to a calm Popeye the Sailor in 45 minutes.....?


Greg

Hi Greg
Hyperbole aside-absolutely. Pretty much anyone can go from being violently angry to calm in a matter of minutes let alone 45 minutes. And psychopath serial killers? Probably could do it in seconds. They are chameleons by nature.

[lynn cates]

play along

Hello Greg

"As others have stated, we go from a staggering lunatic to a calm Popeye the Sailor in 45 minutes.....?"

Oh, come now. Do play along. This is ripperology.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I have my doubts about this Sailor man.

The first description of the Mitre Sq. suspect, 'Redneck', was published on Oct. 2nd,...

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

Yet it had not come from Lawende. The only one of the three witnesses who was talking, was Harris. Lawende had been 'hushed-up' and sequestered away from the public & press, Levy was refusing to talk.
Therefore Harris is the most likely source.

The Oct. 2nd description (above) made no mention of 'Redneck' looking like a sailor.

So where did the idea he looked like a sailor come from?


On Oct. 5th, at the Stride Inquest, William Marshall introduced 'the sailor'.
[Coroner] What sort of a cap?
[Witness] A round cap, with a small peak. It was something like what a sailor would wear.


The police release (Swanson's) of Oct. 19th is the first and only time the "Appearance of a sailor" is mentioned in connection with the Mitre Sq. suspect.

"age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor."


In 1892 another version of the Mitre Sq. suspect, Redneck, hit the press.

"A man of thirty-five, standing 5ft 7in to 5ft 8in, rather square shoulders, clean shaven with the exception of a heavy moustache, inclining to be sandy."

Still no mention of Redneck looking like a sailor.

There may be justification for questioning whether the Mitre Sq. suspect truly looked like a sailor.

[Bridewell]

As others have stated, we go from a staggering lunatic to a calm Popeye the Sailor in 45 minutes.....?

Remind me. Which witness alluded to a staggering lunatic?

[Stephen Thomas]

In the press version, the second man carried a knife -- and broadly matches the description by Lawende -- and not a pipe.

What nonsense is this?

Did Lawende describe a tall man?

Or even a fine featured public school toff?

[GregBaron]

Force fit...

Hi Greg

Yes, but more druittic.

Yes, and he's also more LeGrandic but that hardly fits a rough-neck sailor...

I sense the square peg into the round hole scenario...


Greg

[DVV]

Knifeman's too tall for Sailor Man isn't he...?

Greg

Hi Greg

Yes, but more druittic.

[GregBaron]

Menacing to mild...

In the press version, the second man carried a knife -- and broadly matches the description by Lawende -- and not a pipe.

Knifeman's too tall for Sailor Man isn't he...?

On balance I think there is enough similarity to say that BS Man & Lawende's man could well be one and the same and that's the way I've voted.

As others have stated, we go from a staggering lunatic to a calm Popeye the Sailor in 45 minutes.....?


Greg

[Bridewell]

I think Schwartz's description of Pipeman/Knifeman suggests that he was 5 years or so older than Lawende's suspect so, for me, BS man is the more likely match.