BSM & Sailor Man : one and the same ?

[Wickerman]

Except that Lawnde was brought in to took at sailor suspects, the first of whom does not resemble the man he descibed -- and thr witness did not affirm -- but was a genuine seaman.

Right Jonathan, but the police genuinely thought Sadler may be the Ripper. That was why they called on Lawende, not because Sadler was a sailor.

[Bridewell]

Not to mention two women who, at one time or another, called themselves Mary Kelly, both of whom were murdered, (probably?) by the same hand.

[Jonathan H]

I think some people are barking up the wrong tree.

Either Knifeman was the fiend -- eg. he had a knife -- or Schwartz did not see Jack at all and had the time wrong.

Most importantly, the poice zeroed in on Lawende because the timeline was so tight, and he had described a man as sailor-like in attire.

Grant had scars and tattoos, the man Lawende originally described did not.

Yet they may have been looalikes.

But then this is a case where everybody is weirdly shadowed by a double, or a double who is not:

Druitt and the Drowned Doctor;

Aaron Kosminski and 'Kosminski', and David Cohen;

Colicott and Cutbush, and Cutnush and the cop Cutbush;

Tumblety and the American specimen collector and Littlechild's Dr T who may have taken his own life;

Sadler and Lawende and Sadler and Grant, and Grant and Lawende;

the official version of the Mac Report and it's non-identical twin the 'Aberconway' version, which itself is a copy of a document long lost;

and of course Sims claiming to be the fiend's double.

[Jonathan H]

Except that Lawnde was brought in to took at sailor suspects, the first of whom does not resemble the man he descibed -- and thr witness did not affirm -- but was a genuine seaman.

The second man, Grant, resembled the man he saw so much that [presumably] Lawende said yes.

It's a remarkable moment, if it happened.

A Jewish witness from Mitre Sq. affirmed to a sailor who was found almost murdering a Whitechapel prostitute with a knife.

And ... nothing happened. Nor is there the sense of acute disappointment as there was with Sadler.

Quite the opposite.

Within the same period, early 1895, Swanson apparently said the Ripper was a man who was believed to be deceased and Anderson was saying it was a safely caged lunatic (and according to his son believed that this Jewish madman was deceased).

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

There is simply no way Swanson would have included the "sailor-like" detail in his official police report unless Lawende himself relayed that detail, nor would the police sanctioned Police Gazette have mentioned it. It originated unquestionably with Lawende.

Cheers,
Ben

Hi Ben.

It would appear that no witness in the Stride case (Marshall, Brown, Smith, Schwartz) identified a suspect as looking like a sailor.
And the Mitre Sq. suspect description (Lawende/Harris?) seemingly sourced through the City Police also makes no mention like "appearance of a sailor", then it is a legitimate question to ask what is the source for Swanson's release?

The premise of this thread hangs on the words of Swanson, but no corroboration exists for the 19th Oct. release of a suspect looking like a sailor.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

There is simply no way Swanson would have included the "sailor-like" detail in his official police report unless Lawende himself relayed that detail, nor would the police sanctioned Police Gazette have mentioned it. It originated unquestionably with Lawende.

Cheers,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the clarification, Jon.

As for Swanson's source for the "sailor" detail, I think the obvious and only answer is Lawende himself.

Best regards,
Ben

The trouble is Ben, Lawende's description never included it, neither at the time nor years later as I pointed out in my post.

[Bridewell]

So where did the idea he looked like a sailor come from?

"The City P.C. that was (on) a beat near Mitre Square perhaps?"

[Ben]

Thanks for the clarification, Jon.

As for Swanson's source for the "sailor" detail, I think the obvious and only answer is Lawende himself.

Best regards,
Ben

[Bridewell]

Legitimate

It is a measure of SY's acute desperation in 1891 over the Ripper that they got in Lawende, over two years later (and then six years later over Grant), and had him 'confront' Sadler.

Not a police line-up, take note.

A confrontation ID was permissible and evidentially valid if, but only if, the suspect had been given the opportunity to stand on an ID Parade, but had refused to do so. Nobody can be compelled to stand on an ID Parade - not in the UK anyway.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
Not directly perhaps, but here we have another example of a police source divulging case-related information to the press before its intended official release.

Ben.
This issue of 'the police' not sharing details of their investigation is a Scotland Yard/Metropolitan initiative, nothing to do with the City police.

The description you refer to came from a City witness for a City crime and we know that relations between the press and the City police were considerably more amiable than between the press and the Met/SY.

Swanson's report makes clear that Lawende had described the man as having the "appearance of a sailor".

I raised the point about Swanson being the first to include "appearance of a sailor" in order to pose the question, where did he get that info from?

[Ben]

Yes, there is more than enough similarity between BS and "sailor man" to infer than the two may have been the same man. The height, age, headgear, "jacket" are perfectly compatible. Schwartz appeared to have paid more attention to features, whereas Lawende focussed more specifically on clothing. A "sailor-like" peaked cap would be more noteworthy in the City as opposed to Berner Street near the docklands, where sailor-like men were two-a-penny.

Pipeman is a far less persuasive match; he was older, taller, and wearing a different hat. I realise the last mentioned may seem trivial, but what are the realistic chances of the killer being able (or willing?) to change headgear between the Sride and Eddowes murders, assuming the same man was responsible for both?

Hi Jon,

The first description of the Mitre Sq. suspect, 'Redneck', was published on Oct. 2nd,...

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

Yet it had not come from Lawende.

Not directly perhaps, but here we have another example of a police source divulging case-related information to the press before its intended official release. Apparently, the 2nd October description only appeared in the Times.

Evidently, this description was not provided by the Jewish trio directly to the press, or else the rest of their accounts would be provided along with their names. Since this description was only supposed to have been released for the first time in the police-sanctioned Police Gazette on 19th October, it is perfectly clear that a police source communicated with the Times directly (unless this description appears in any other paper?), resulting in the premature release of the Lawende description.

Swanson's report makes clear that Lawende had described the man as having the "appearance of a sailor".

All the best,
Ben

[Jonathan H]

Oh, I think it happened alright -- both times.

It is a measure of SY's acute desperation in 1891 over the Ripper that they got in Lawende, over two years later (and then six years later over Grant), and had him 'confront' Sadler.

Not a police line-up, take note.

Just Sadler.

As you say Sadler was a burly, bearded bruiser compared to the younger, lither, smoother figure the witness had reported seeing.

What a long shot!

So important was this moment and so disappointing its outcome that it lodged in some part of Anderson's fading memory.

Instead of being honest with himself and admitting that it was helluva long shot, Anderson's huge ego turned it into a positive identification which only failed because the Jewish witness would not testify against a fellow Hebrew (plus Grant being positively identified has perhaps lodged in the same neuron).

[DVV]

As you've pointed out, we have only one newspaper for each case.
If Lawende was really called to identify Sadler, the less I can say is that it was a waste of time.
How could this 50 years old man be Sailor Man, aged about 30 ? - and merely said to be "young" by Major Smith.

[Jonathan H]

The two Ripper suspects of 1891 and 1895, Tom Sadler, and William Grant, respectively,were both seamen.

I do not think this was a coincidence that the witness the police brought in to confront these suspects, both times -- if that is what happened as we are relying on singular press accounts -- was Lawende, who had described just such an attired man.