Jack the Ripper's possible secret

[RivkahChaya]

Have we really reached the point where people of an age and intellect to post still see this sort of speculation as intelligent, useful or tenable?

In fairness, we don't know how old that poster is, but the overuse of lowercase letters, the random punctuation, and the phrase "[J]ewish friendly butchers" make me think he (or she) is pretty young, maybe even in high school. I first read about the case when I was about 11, and if I had looked over a map, and thought I saw a pattern, and didn't see that anyone had written about it in the couple of books right at hand, my first thought would be that no one had noticed it, not that it was so trivial, it wasn't worth comment, or that it had been done to death, and was over.

Posting to a message board doesn't require age, or intellect; if all American Ace did was Google "Jack the Ripper," this site comes up on the first page. He probably read the Wiki article; I don't know whether that mentions anything about the locations, but it's not interactive. Casebook might be the first hit with interactive MBs, that you don't have to pay to join.

[lynn cates]

murders

Hello Ace. Welcome to the boards.

I'm afraid I don't see a cross, an arrow, nor yet a ripper. I see some murders that need to be solved. My aim is to do precisely that.

Cheers.
LC

[Ally]

You know what I've always wondered when reading a theory about the killer supposedly plotting out some great symbol in the body locations?

Where'd he get the map? How much did he pay for that?

[Phil H]

I was once told - I have never been able to discover whether it is true - that in the UK Ordnance Survey maps of towns and anything derived from them, such as town plans and A-Zs were deliberately distorted in subtle ways.

This policy dated back to the C19th and was designed to make it difficult for an enemy to use cheaply bought town or city maps, to target key points with artillery during a seige. Anyone know whether there is any truth in that?

IF it is true, then any map JtR might have used (I doubt he could READ a map, let alone use one to do anything sophisticated) would distort is geometric plan of a certainty.

With Ley Lines - straight lines of earth magnetic force - were long claimed claimed to link certain landscape features - church towers, standing stones etc. When they were looked at critically, and scientifically, lines which appeared remarkable on a small scale map, ceased to exist on a larger scale. A line that passed through a church on one scale, was seen to miss it by yards on another.

So - how did Jack - if he created this geometric feature, intend others to see it? There is not a single letter, nor the GSG - that can be called into evidence (however tenuously) to suggest that Jack tried to say "look at what I am doing"/

This is nonsense, and we should say so!

Cynical and grumpy

Phil

[TomTomKent]

This is nonsense, and we should say so!

Cynical and grumpy

Phil

I don't think saying that something is nonsense makes you cynical or grumpy. There is a newcomer to these boards who has just become interested in a particular corner of history and criminology. Although his theory is not quite as outlandish as a who's-who suspect, it is obvious they are coming from a place where they are yet to understand how to spot what is nonsense and what is evidence.

I agree we should indeed say it is nonsense, not least because if the OP of this thread is accurate then Ace strongly believes that one of two Jewish Butchers he seems to have identified in the locality was responsible for some hideous crimes. If he has asked for feedback the least we can do is point out that such accusations should not be made lightly and should not be made on weak premises like picture games and geogrphic patterns that may sound alluring but do not withstand scrutiny.

I hope Ace takes your post as being neither cynical nor grumpy.

[lynn cates]

quick kill

Hello Ally, Phil. Quite.

Not to bring up the inevitable question, "Why would one want to leave such a clue?"

The vast majority of murders--for whatever motive--involves killing quickly and beating a hasty retreat.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Just like to add that there have been many serial killers that have worked to a design, the Zodiac killer most likely the most infamous of recent times.
I appreciate numerology , and statistics, are in the main coincidental, but it is not out of the question that Jack worked to a pattern that was fanciful in his own twisted world.
Killing on certain dates, or times of the month , or in certain streets that were relevant to him spring to mind, he may have dabbled in Black magic, or masonic rituals, the former something I based my 39 theory on.
For those not familiar to that here is a guide.
Martha Tabram aged 39..stabbed 39 times.
Nichols..killed on the 31st of the 8th month=39
Chapman..the last date, plus the date of her death=39
Stride/Eddowes..Killed on the 30th of the 9th month=39
Mary Kelly the date of the previous , and the date of her death=39
The latter lived at 26, Dorset street, room 13=39
Joseph Barnett left her on the 30th..died 9th=39
There are several more .. but one should get the picture.
All numerology and considered by many to be fanciful , but as Black magic uses that number as significant, which one reaches by multiplying the number 13 by 3.
So I would not dismiss any patten, that reveals itself in this case, certainly not a butcher being involved, even masonic connections.
Regards Richard.

[Ally]

In truth, we are used to the idea of killers (and detectives) whipping out their Rand McNally and plotting a demonic symbol on the streets of (Insert City Here) because we've been fed that story repeatedly in books, TV programs and movies. But in reality? An impoverished chap in Whitechapel choosing for some reason to go and spend hard-earned cash on a copy of Bacon's Atlas or some other highly detailed map that would show the streets to the degree and scale required, etc... Or did he just go with any old map? I mean it's his great work or whatever and he just cheaps out on a rough copy, not-to-scale cheapo map and hey it still works!

I mean, yeah don't think so.

[Ally]

Hi,
Just like to add that there have been many serial killers that have worked to a design, the Zodiac killer most likely the most infamous of recent times..
Regards Richard.

Except he didn't. There is absolutely not a single coherent design that can be found in the zodiac murder locations.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Ally.
Absolutely he sent clues via Cryptograms , but it is now believed, that many serial killers past and even present work to a rhythm , and a predictable pattern, so I must include our Jack.
Regards Richard.

[Ally]

And yet, there's not a single shred of evidence that this is the case, and of course the murder locations themselves prove against it. Work to a rhythm? If by that you mean they themselves have a pattern in where they hunt and basic geographic locations, as all predators do, then fine, that's a point of agreement.

The idea that they are out there forming great symbols of occult or geometric significance is not one that is supported by fact. And the Zodiac killer himself certainly had no design in mind as evidence by the murder sites themselves.

[The Good Michael]

, or masonic rituals, the former something I based my 39 theory on.
For those not familiar to that here is a guide.
Martha Tabram aged 39..stabbed 39 times.
Nichols..killed on the 31st of the 8th month=39
Chapman..the last date, plus the date of her death=39
Stride/Eddowes..Killed on the 30th of the 9th month=39
Mary Kelly the date of the previous , and the date of her death=39
The latter lived at 26, Dorset street, room 13=39
Joseph Barnett left her on the 30th..died 9th=39
There are several more .. but one should get the picture.
All numerology and considered by many to be fanciful , but as Black magic uses that number as significant, which one reaches by multiplying the number 13 by 3.
So I would not dismiss any patten, that reveals itself in this case, certainly not a butcher being involved, even masonic connections.

The rub is this: There are so many believers of some sort of coherent ritualism in the ripper murders, and each espied ritual contradicts the last one. This means it's probably nonsensical to believe in such things. It also means that ritualism can never be proved and will always, at best, be some sort fringe craziness. Only the killer could say if he had some sort of magical concept in his head when he did what he did, and he ain't talking.

Cheers,

Mike

[Errata]

While I'm a big believer that nothing is impossible, I am quite sure that many things are vanishingly unlikely. Like a pattern to Jack's murder sites.

But to play devils advocate, I would point out two things. There are people in the world whose spatial sense is extraordinary. They can picture the layout of a city with uncanny precision by having only walked around it. And can draw very good maps. They are rare, but the skill is a combination of extremely good spatial sense, and a very good visual memory. Jack in theory could have been one of those people. The second thing is that there are people with certain mental illnesses who are very focused on numbers. Autism, certain manifestations of Schizophrenia, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. While I have been vocal in my rejection of the idea that any kind of mental illness caused these crimes, a mental illness could have informed the particulars. Which doesn't mean the numbers in these crimes is culturally significant. Meaning that the numbers aren't meant to communicate anything, nor are they a reference to anything religious,spiritual, etc. They just happen to be the numbers that person is obsessed with.

Culturally (in Britain, America and Canada), the most significant numbers and most popular numbers are 1, 3, 7, 10 and 12. As someone to pick a number, most pick one of these, or a multiple of one of these (barring 1. since everything multiplies by one). One is more popular in America than anywhere else, but we are a people somewhat obsessed with our own singularity. One nation, one god, All for one and one for all. Three because we are highly informed by Christianity. Holy Trinity, 3 realms of the dead, 3 at the crucifixion, 3 on a match, 3 strikes you're out. Seven is also religious. The world was created in 7 days, 7 deadly sins, 7 sacrements, 7 seals, 7 days in a week, 7 colors in the rainbow. Ten pretty much because it's a good round number and we group things in 10s thank to the Romans. Twelve is again, religious. 12 apostles, 12 days of Christmas, 12 Olympians, 12 Tribes of Israel, 12 Knights of the Round Table, 12 inches in a foot, 12 step programs. Because we are constantly bombarded with these numbers, we tend to think in these numbers. But someone with OCD doesn't wash their hands 12 times because there are 12 days of Christmas. They do it because they feel they can stop after 12. Somewhere in the recesses of their brain they may associate 12 with a lot of things, but they don't choose the number 12 to represent something. 12 doesn't mean anything there. So finding numbers doesn't mean the numbers are significant. As a culture, we have numerical preferences. And whether those preferences influenced religious texts or the other way around we can't know.

[The Good Michael]

The second thing is that there are people with certain mental illnesses who are very focused on numbers. Autism, certain manifestations of Schizophrenia, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. While I have been vocal in my rejection of the idea that any kind of mental illness caused these crimes, a mental illness could have informed the particulars.

And to take it backwards, these disorders that we label people with in this day and age, were probably considered connected to evil and ritualism at various times throughout history...so in a way, suspicions might be correct in a backwards-thinking way.

Mike

[Robert]

I thought the world was created in six days, with a day off added on.