Jack the Field Surgeon ?

[moonbegger]

Hello Casebookers ,

Its time for another slightly off the wall Moonbegger theory !
Its gonna be a quick one , so bare with me folks .

Born out of both fact and fiction , this may well have been put forward before , and if it has , and its already been dismissed outright , then i apologise, But ...

Whilst watching a episode of Ripper street (The weight of one mans heart ) it reminded me of the dreadful treatment some veterans , past and present often receive on returning from war , especially by the Governments who send them off to fight in the first place .

The same week i watched the TV show , i was also reading an old article regarding the Connaught Rangers ... So i put two and two together and came up with six and a half ( as ya do ) so here's my thinking ...

Someone , not necessarily a field Surgeon , but maybe an assistant who had lots of hand's on experience in the field, operating or assisting operations in a war zone , then returning from war and being sucked into a life of grim poverty. someone with a strong arm and knew how to keep his cool under pressure , and Kill without too much disturbance, who would also be very familiar with the workings of his blade ... interestingly enough i found this 1881 Boer war field Surgeons kit online .. There is also a picture .

SIX - SCALPELS OF DIFFERENT TYPES, INCLUDING ONE WITH A SAW EDGE
THREE PAIRS - SCISSORS
TWO - CLAMPS
ONE - NOZZLE FOR SOME INSTRUMENT
ONE - PROBE

Scalpel with a saw edge ! didn't more than one doctor in the Ripper case describe the wounds as Jagged ?
And apart from the story of the American Doctor (who showed up at the British Museum saying he was willing to pay good money for female uterus's) was there any other black market for these organs ?

This is from wikipedia ..

In 1881, the 88th Regiment of Foot (Connaught Rangers) (which formed the 1st Battalion) and the 94th Regiment of Foot (which formed the 2nd Battalion) were amalgamated. The amalgamation of the two regiments into one with the title The Connaught Rangers, was part of the United Kingdom government's reorganization of the British army under the Childers Reforms, a continuation of the Cardwell Reforms implemented in 1879.
It was one of eight Irish regiments raised largely in Ireland, with its home depot in Galway.

Galway ! ( Mary Kelly connection ? )

The 2nd Battalion returned home the following year when they were stationed in Ireland and in 1887 moved to England. The new 2nd Battalion sent a small detachment on the Gordon Relief Expedition in 1884 as Camel Mounted Infantry.
In 1889 the 2nd Battalion deployed to Malta. The 1st Battalion departed India in 1890

So they Moved to England in 1887 and left in 1889 !

I know this is more than likely a load of codswallop , but i thought it worthy of a mention .. besides , i had a few minutes to kill before scooby doo comes on

cheers

moonbegger .

[YankeeSergeant]

funny you should mention that

Hello Casebookers ,

Its time for another slightly off the wall Moonbegger theory !
Its gonna be a quick one , so bare with me folks .

Born out of both fact and fiction , this may well have been put forward before , and if it has , and its already been dismissed outright , then i apologise, But ...

Whilst watching a episode of Ripper street (The weight of one mans heart ) it reminded me of the dreadful treatment some veterans , past and present often receive on returning from war , especially by the Governments who send them off to fight in the first place .

The same week i watched the TV show , i was also reading an old article regarding the Connaught Rangers ... So i put two and two together and came up with six and a half ( as ya do ) so here's my thinking ...

Someone , not necessarily a field Surgeon , but maybe an assistant who had lots of hand's on experience in the field, operating or assisting operations in a war zone , then returning from war and being sucked into a life of grim poverty. someone with a strong arm and knew how to keep his cool under pressure , and Kill without too much disturbance, who would also be very familiar with the workings of his blade ... interestingly enough i found this 1881 Boer war field Surgeons kit online .. There is also a picture .

SIX - SCALPELS OF DIFFERENT TYPES, INCLUDING ONE WITH A SAW EDGE
THREE PAIRS - SCISSORS
TWO - CLAMPS
ONE - NOZZLE FOR SOME INSTRUMENT
ONE - PROBE

Scalpel with a saw edge ! didn't more than one doctor in the Ripper case describe the wounds as Jagged ?
And apart from the story of the American Doctor (who showed up at the British Museum saying he was willing to pay good money for female uterus's) was there any other black market for these organs ?

This is from wikipedia ..

Galway ! ( Mary Kelly connection ? )



So they Moved to England in 1887 and left in 1889 !

I know this is more than likely a load of codswallop , but i thought it worthy of a mention .. besides , i had a few minutes to kill before scooby doo comes on

cheers

moonbegger .

Moonbegger,
Funny you should mention that. I use that premise in my novel. Having said that Assistant field surgeons, at least in the United States army during that time and before were called assistant regimental surgeons. They were medical doctors and would have been higly capable. A good medical orderly would have learned enough after a long stint of war such as British troops saw in India or Afghanistan or American troops saw in the American Civil War enough about anatomy to be reasonably competent. So would have a ship's doctor. Just thoughts for you to ponder when you're not pondering where the Scooby-snacks are. Neil

[Errata]

It's certainly possible. The Boer War had atrocities enough to significantly warp the soul of the average man. God knows what it would have done to a closeted psychopath.

I'm not sure that the skills in the Ripper murders were necessarily on par with a field surgeon. If they existed at the time I would have said a field medic. But it could have been an assistant. Or simply a bad field surgeon. No reason they all had to be good at their work.

It would alter the C5 some. Likely for a surgeon Annie Chapman would have been the first victim. And I say this because if a field surgeon was doing this, he did it in the Boer War, where no one cared what happened to civilians. It sort of doesn't make sense to not do it in the one place you are almost guaranteed to not get caught, but then start when arriving in London. Which would mean that he had a method and a set of goals perfected before leaving Africa. Which would then mean that the sort of probing done to Polly Nichols doesn't make a ton of sense.

Although there's nothing to say he didn't just get distracted during her murder. Perhaps she was peculiar in some way to him.

British people being somewhat peculiar (though I dearly love you guys), Boer War atrocities were actually fairly well reported. Most people wouldn't have kept such precise records of their war crimes, but perhaps the Germanity of your royalty rubbed off. Anyway, if you are in a position to go through records from the Boer War, you might very well find Ripper victims in them.

[YankeeSergeant]

field surgeons

It's certainly possible. The Boer War had atrocities enough to significantly warp the soul of the average man. God knows what it would have done to a closeted psychopath.

I'm not sure that the skills in the Ripper murders were necessarily on par with a field surgeon. If they existed at the time I would have said a field medic. But it could have been an assistant. Or simply a bad field surgeon. No reason they all had to be good at their work.

It would alter the C5 some. Likely for a surgeon Annie Chapman would have been the first victim. And I say this because if a field surgeon was doing this, he did it in the Boer War, where no one cared what happened to civilians. It sort of doesn't make sense to not do it in the one place you are almost guaranteed to not get caught, but then start when arriving in London. Which would mean that he had a method and a set of goals perfected before leaving Africa. Which would then mean that the sort of probing done to Polly Nichols doesn't make a ton of sense.

Although there's nothing to say he didn't just get distracted during her murder. Perhaps she was peculiar in some way to him.

British people being somewhat peculiar (though I dearly love you guys), Boer War atrocities were actually fairly well reported. Most people wouldn't have kept such precise records of their war crimes, but perhaps the Germanity of your royalty rubbed off. Anyway, if you are in a position to go through records from the Boer War, you might very well find Ripper victims in them.

Errata, Field surgery was of necessity quick and meant to enable the victim to survive long enough to get to a hospital. In point of fact, in late 1861/early 1862 the Union army dismissed several field surgeons for incompetence. There is a reason it was called "meatball surgery" during the second world war and korea and by then the medicos actually had to know their job. Does that prove it was a field surgeon? No but it doesn't disprove it either. Likely JAck the Ripper was working in even more of a hurry than any field surgeon would have with the exception of the Mary Kelly murder It took approximately ten minutes for a field surgeon to amputate a leg or arm during the Civil War. Obviously, "Saucy JAcky" wasn't looking to cure anyone but would he spend a lot of time knowing that he could be found out with the next person coming around the corner? He could have been a highly competent surgeon, but the time constraints rule out it looking like a decent surgery as does the fact when the mutilations occured the victims were likely dead.. Was our boy warped? No doubt, but he still was reasonably functional in my humble opinion or he would not have gotten away with the murders. regards, Neil

[Roy Corduroy]

Good to hear from you Sarge,

Well, there's W C Minor. He was a Yankee doc in the war, then went to London and killed a man.

Roy

[Wickerman]

Though if the killer had been a field surgeon, shouldn't we expect him to have displayed a degree of surgical skill?

[Errata]

Though if the killer had been a field surgeon, shouldn't we expect him to have displayed a degree of surgical skill?

He does display surgical skill. Just not oddly enough on the outside of the body. And I have no idea what that means, and I have no idea how a person gets a ton of practice inside an abdomen, but almost none actually getting in there.

[CPenney]

He does display surgical skill. Just not oddly enough on the outside of the body. And I have no idea what that means, and I have no idea how a person gets a ton of practice inside an abdomen, but almost none actually getting in there.

I'm not sure how much experience a surgeon at a field medical centre would get removing uteruses.

I know some people after being in combat find that they like it and stay in the army, or become a mercenary, etc., but would it turn someone into a sexual serial killer?

[Damaso Marte]

The general consensus is that the Ripper displayed anatomical knowledge but not surgical skill. An inexperienced medical professional, a medical school dropout, somebody who learned medicine in a rushed/imperfect environment, all might be explanations, along with dozens of other hypothetical.

[Errata]

I'm not sure how much experience a surgeon at a field medical centre would get removing uteruses.

I know some people after being in combat find that they like it and stay in the army, or become a mercenary, etc., but would it turn someone into a sexual serial killer?

Fair point on the uteruses.

But I imagine that one does not turn into a psychopath. One is or is not, and at some point that triggers into action instead of fantasy.

But one of the reasons the Boer War in particular might be in this guy's history is that women and children were butchered. Not in combat, but in the course of internment. Something absolutely on par with the behavior of the Nazis in their death camps. The Crimean War was also exceptionally brutal, but in a different way, one not particularly involving civilians. So while a serial killer might have plied his trade in the Crimean War, it would be a different kind of serial killer.

So If I was going to look at a veteran, I would look at the Boer War or a Belgian who served in the Congo.

[Roy Corduroy]

But one of the reasons the Boer War in particular might be in this guy's history is that women and children were butchered. Not in combat, but in the course of internment. ...

So If I was going to look at a veteran, I would look at the Boer War ...

The Boer War with internment camps was 1899-1902

Roy

[moonbegger]

As far as that old chestnut " did he have anatomical knowledge/skill , goes " I think we need to refer to the thread of the same name , in particular the posts by ( Prosector ) .

I really think he has disabled any remaining conjecture that the killer was a smash and grab artist, once and for all ! just as Baxter concurred 125 years ago ,,

it was done by one who knew where to find what he wanted , what difficulties he would have to contend against , and how he should use his knife , so as to abstract the organ without injury to it.

cheers

moonbegger

[Wickerman]

I didn't think there was anyone left who believes the killer demonstrated surgical skill.
Practically everyone and his dog, not forgetting the medical professionals of the time, have shown this to have been an erroneous belief.

As for anatomical knowledge, that is another matter...

[Cogidubnus]

I think that's, on the whole, a fair distinction to make

All the best

Dave

[Errata]

The Boer War with internment camps was 1899-1902

Roy

I was totally about to argue with you, but then I remembered there were three Boer communities. One in the Transvaal, One former Dutch, one under Rhodes. Rhodes having turned into an exceptional monster of a man with his treatment of natives, I had an accident in my head. Because politics isn't complicated enough without three states with the same name.
Mea Culpa