Francis Hermans - Update - Solid evidence of him being in vicinity of torso murders.

[Trevor Marriott]

There are other matters that are much more urgent, Trevor. Starting with the ridiculous idea that a body cannot be cut up in many different ways, moving past the notion that victorian medicos were engaing in guesswork only and finishing at the whopper of a suggestion that there were numerous killers on the loose in Whitechapel in 1888 who generously opened women up to facilitate for organsnatchers to go about their business in the morgues. THAT, if anything, is "guesswork".
But I have told you all of this many times already, as has most posters out here, and we have all come to realize that it is like pouring water on a goose. All we get in return is the stale old mumbling about how we are not willing to offer a fresh look at things, instead opring for the same old, same old. The pathetic thing about that is how you are completely unwilling to accept anything, no matter how fresh it is, if it is not in line with the nonsense you tout.

I really should not get drawn into these discussions with you. Nor should anybody else. It is a complete waste of time and energy, and it offers a scene for ideas that have no place in the real world.

Goodbye.

Again you put pen to paper without engaging your brain first.

I bet you have not even bothered to purchase and my book in which Dr Biggs covers in great detail all the issues you seek to rely on to prop up your theory

No one is suggesting multiple killers, that's your interpretation of my posts and you misguided belief that all the torsos were murdered by the same hand that murdered the Whitechapel victims of which if the torsos were murdered is the complete opposite of the killers MO to WM.

The suggestion is and has always been that the killer of Eddowes and Chapman did not remove the organs from the victims at the crime scene.

Your quote
"Starting with the ridiculous idea that a body cannot be cut up in many different ways, moving past the notion that victorian medicos were engaing in guesswork only
and finishing at the whopper of a suggestion that there were numerous killers on the loose in Whitechapel in 1888 who generously opened women up to facilitate for organ snatchers to go about their business in the morgues"

Again we evidence from you in making things up. No one not even I have suggested that the killer of these women was deliberately killing them for the purpose of removing organs and selling them on. Stop making things up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you not grasp the fact that if two bodies are taken to two different mortuaries and when examined and compared they show that the extractions were carried out by using two different methods, the first Chapman was a successful removal, the second a botched attempt at the removal, but in both cases anatomical knowledge was seen.

If it suggested the same killer,and that the killer removed the organs at the crime scene, why was he not able to remove Chapman organs in a proficient way? after successfully performing a much more difficult removal of Chapmans organs?

It seem to me that you have created a murder mystery about the Torsos where there is none to be created, basing your theory on the fact that the killer removed organs from the Whitechapel victims, so when the torsos were missing vital organs you think it was the same killer. I think you need to take a step back and re evaluate your research. Any body with a modicum of common sense can see your theory is flawed.

And I am still waiting for you to produce the evidence to show the actual causes of death of the torsos. I suspect I will be waiting a long time and I am out of this pointless discussion with you

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

www.trevormarriott.co.uk[/url]

Thank you! Strictly speaking, you were never in it in the first place.

[Michael W Richards]

Another battle of wits with unarmed men Trevor.

[Fisherman]

Another battle of wits with unarmed men Trevor.

Yes, I know. I only do it for courtesy’ s sake. But don’ t let that phase you - get armed like the rest of us!

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, I know. I only do it for courtesy’ s sake. But don’ t let that phase you - get armed like the rest of us!

Didnt take your side with the initial comment to Trevor Fish, but twisting facts is your forte right?

[Fisherman]

Didnt take your side with the initial comment to Trevor Fish, but twisting facts is your forte right?

No - but YOUR forte is claiming that I do. Most people are quite aware of that, though, but it seems you may need to be informed?

By the way, this is a non- response message. Meaning that whatever you concoct to answer me, it will go unanswered by me. Trust me, it is best that way.

How about the rest of us return to the aim of the thread and skip the mudslinging?

[Michael W Richards]

By all means, the fiction is afoot.....

[Bridewell]

It's certainly an interesting case. A more bloodthirsty version of Severin Klosowski.

But if I'm looking at it correctly, it looks like he and his wife Emmeline had a son baptized in Horsham in 1891. So they apparently moved to the Horsham area sometime between 1882 and 1891.

You'll want to find out where Samuel was born in Dec 1887. I'm not immediately seeing it.

Samuel Hermans

Male

Birth: 3 Dec 1887

Baptism: 22 Mar 1891

Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Horsham, Surrey, England

Francis Hermans

Emmeline

1278932

1821

Not sure why this places Horsham in Surrey. Perhaps a misreading of handwritten records by a transcriber? Horsham is in West Sussex. it's also on the main railway line from Bognor Regis and Portsmouth to London so the journey to and from London Victoria is a straightforward as it could be.

[The Rookie Detective]

Fascinating thread!

Although i'd advise ignoring all the posts after 113, as it's just the usual argumentative circular nonsense that does nothing constructive.

But despite all that, this thread absolutely needs a BIG bump up!

What's the latest on this thread topic?

[The Rookie Detective]

Just to confirm that Samuel was baptised in Sussex, but his father did not attend; he was still in Glasgow at the time.
Samuel was taken in by relatives and baptised by them in 1891, and was effectively saved from his murderous father who had already murdered his older brother Frank, his mother and also the "sister" who had gone to care for Frank and Samuel after their mother had died unexpectedly from consumption (allegedly) despite having been healthy when she visited her brother Arthur shortly before her untimely demise at the hands of her husband.
It seems likely that the woman who initially looked after the boys discovered that Emmeline had been murdered, and was herself silenced by Francis in the process.


In terms of eligibility for the Thames Torso murders; and possibly the Ripper murders, Francis did travel a lot and therefore could have travelled from Le Harve to London, Glasgow to London etc...
We also have a confirmed connection to the Ratcliffe Highway where MJK had allegedly spent time in the early to mid 1880's, in that Francis met Emmeline when she was working there.
This proves at the very least that Francis was familiar with the area to some extent.

If we believe that the torso killer was a transient killer, then the idea that Francis was able to come and go under the guise of a paius man i.e. a London City Missionary, then he may have been able to kill and then deposit body parts as and when he could.

We know he was in London in 1882, and we know he was in London in 1887.
In fact, there's no evidence to suggest that he was anywhere else between 1882 - 1887.

His eldest son Frank (who was almost certainly murdered) was born on 16th November 1882, shortly after his parents married, and Samuel born on 3rd December 1887 in (Le Harve/ Glasgow/?)

Therefore, what was Francis doing during this time?

We know he was a London City Missionary, and we know he had a penchant for dismemberment.

Does his M.O fit with the Torso killings?

In terms of description...

Heritage Swedish (England born?)
Heigjt 5ft 8"
Weight "around 180lbs"
Hair "Sandy" - parted left side
Eyes "light blue' or "grey"
Moustache "Heavy and Sandy"

defining characteristics-
"square shouldered"
"stout neck"
"small soft hands"
"Black sore/scar on lower lip"
"Gold spectacles"


A former colleague once described Hermans as follows...

"Herman was built like an Ox. He was strong, somewhat shorter than the average, but very heavy. He had a short bull-like neck and ponderous shoulders."

This description seems to imply a broadshouldered stocky man, not very tall but stoutly built.

Interestingly, despite most of the sketches of Hermans having him wear his distinctive spectacles, the early sketch of him with his wife Emmeline and son Frank, drawn circa 1887, has him depicted wearing no spectacles.

We also know that he had a distinctive moustache that we heavy set and sandy coloured. In the rain of course, this would look darker than if dry.

Hermans also had his moustache shaved off before he fled Utah to head east to Chicago and was nearly apprehended when he was seen by police entering the train station.

In other words, he often changed his appearance, was agile enough to escape capture and spent much of his time in transit.

Having murdered no fewer than 8 people, the true number is potentially much higher.


Lots to consider and well worth à closer look.

But just to add, does the Swedish connection provide us with a potential clue to the Ripper murders?

Stride inparticular.

If would be reasonable to assume that considering that Hermans was a London City Missionary and of Swedish heritage, that he would have been aware of the Swedish Church and various other Swedish and Scandinavian establishments throughout London.

On that basis, did he have any link to Stride?

Could he have been the man who was seen with Stride at the Bricklayers Arms?

Could Herman have been the man who murdered Stride?

And could that either prove or rule out Stride as a Ripper victim?

So much more to this thread.

[The Rookie Detective]

Samuel's actual baptism record from March 22nd 1891...


Clearly no evidence that Hermans was anywhere near the area and was only baptised through the efforts of his extended family members.