Francis Hermans - Update - Solid evidence of him being in vicinity of torso murders.

[The Rookie Detective]

Samuel's actual baptism record from March 22nd 1891...


Clearly no evidence that Hermans was anywhere near the area and was only baptised through the efforts of his extended family members.

[The Rookie Detective]

Just to confirm that Samuel was baptised in Sussex, but his father did not attend; he was still in Glasgow at the time.
Samuel was taken in by relatives and baptised by them in 1891, and was effectively saved from his murderous father who had already murdered his older brother Frank, his mother and also the "sister" who had gone to care for Frank and Samuel after their mother had died unexpectedly from consumption (allegedly) despite having been healthy when she visited her brother Arthur shortly before her untimely demise at the hands of her husband.
It seems likely that the woman who initially looked after the boys discovered that Emmeline had been murdered, and was herself silenced by Francis in the process.


In terms of eligibility for the Thames Torso murders; and possibly the Ripper murders, Francis did travel a lot and therefore could have travelled from Le Harve to London, Glasgow to London etc...
We also have a confirmed connection to the Ratcliffe Highway where MJK had allegedly spent time in the early to mid 1880's, in that Francis met Emmeline when she was working there.
This proves at the very least that Francis was familiar with the area to some extent.

If we believe that the torso killer was a transient killer, then the idea that Francis was able to come and go under the guise of a paius man i.e. a London City Missionary, then he may have been able to kill and then deposit body parts as and when he could.

We know he was in London in 1882, and we know he was in London in 1887.
In fact, there's no evidence to suggest that he was anywhere else between 1882 - 1887.

His eldest son Frank (who was almost certainly murdered) was born on 16th November 1882, shortly after his parents married, and Samuel born on 3rd December 1887 in (Le Harve/ Glasgow/?)

Therefore, what was Francis doing during this time?

We know he was a London City Missionary, and we know he had a penchant for dismemberment.

Does his M.O fit with the Torso killings?

In terms of description...

Heritage Swedish (England born?)
Heigjt 5ft 8"
Weight "around 180lbs"
Hair "Sandy" - parted left side
Eyes "light blue' or "grey"
Moustache "Heavy and Sandy"

defining characteristics-
"square shouldered"
"stout neck"
"small soft hands"
"Black sore/scar on lower lip"
"Gold spectacles"


A former colleague once described Hermans as follows...

"Herman was built like an Ox. He was strong, somewhat shorter than the average, but very heavy. He had a short bull-like neck and ponderous shoulders."

This description seems to imply a broadshouldered stocky man, not very tall but stoutly built.

Interestingly, despite most of the sketches of Hermans having him wear his distinctive spectacles, the early sketch of him with his wife Emmeline and son Frank, drawn circa 1887, has him depicted wearing no spectacles.

We also know that he had a distinctive moustache that we heavy set and sandy coloured. In the rain of course, this would look darker than if dry.

Hermans also had his moustache shaved off before he fled Utah to head east to Chicago and was nearly apprehended when he was seen by police entering the train station.

In other words, he often changed his appearance, was agile enough to escape capture and spent much of his time in transit.

Having murdered no fewer than 8 people, the true number is potentially much higher.


Lots to consider and well worth à closer look.

But just to add, does the Swedish connection provide us with a potential clue to the Ripper murders?

Stride inparticular.

If would be reasonable to assume that considering that Hermans was a London City Missionary and of Swedish heritage, that he would have been aware of the Swedish Church and various other Swedish and Scandinavian establishments throughout London.

On that basis, did he have any link to Stride?

Could he have been the man who was seen with Stride at the Bricklayers Arms?

Could Herman have been the man who murdered Stride?

And could that either prove or rule out Stride as a Ripper victim?

So much more to this thread.

[The Rookie Detective]

Fascinating thread!

Although i'd advise ignoring all the posts after 113, as it's just the usual argumentative circular nonsense that does nothing constructive.

But despite all that, this thread absolutely needs a BIG bump up!

What's the latest on this thread topic?

[Bridewell]

It's certainly an interesting case. A more bloodthirsty version of Severin Klosowski.

But if I'm looking at it correctly, it looks like he and his wife Emmeline had a son baptized in Horsham in 1891. So they apparently moved to the Horsham area sometime between 1882 and 1891.

You'll want to find out where Samuel was born in Dec 1887. I'm not immediately seeing it.

Samuel Hermans

Male

Birth: 3 Dec 1887

Baptism: 22 Mar 1891

Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Horsham, Surrey, England

Francis Hermans

Emmeline

1278932

1821

Not sure why this places Horsham in Surrey. Perhaps a misreading of handwritten records by a transcriber? Horsham is in West Sussex. it's also on the main railway line from Bognor Regis and Portsmouth to London so the journey to and from London Victoria is a straightforward as it could be.

[Michael W Richards]

By all means, the fiction is afoot.....

[Fisherman]

Didnt take your side with the initial comment to Trevor Fish, but twisting facts is your forte right?

No - but YOUR forte is claiming that I do. Most people are quite aware of that, though, but it seems you may need to be informed?

By the way, this is a non- response message. Meaning that whatever you concoct to answer me, it will go unanswered by me. Trust me, it is best that way.

How about the rest of us return to the aim of the thread and skip the mudslinging?

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, I know. I only do it for courtesy’ s sake. But don’ t let that phase you - get armed like the rest of us!

Didnt take your side with the initial comment to Trevor Fish, but twisting facts is your forte right?

[Fisherman]

Another battle of wits with unarmed men Trevor.

Yes, I know. I only do it for courtesy’ s sake. But don’ t let that phase you - get armed like the rest of us!

[Michael W Richards]

Another battle of wits with unarmed men Trevor.

[Fisherman]

www.trevormarriott.co.uk[/url]

Thank you! Strictly speaking, you were never in it in the first place.

[Trevor Marriott]

There are other matters that are much more urgent, Trevor. Starting with the ridiculous idea that a body cannot be cut up in many different ways, moving past the notion that victorian medicos were engaing in guesswork only and finishing at the whopper of a suggestion that there were numerous killers on the loose in Whitechapel in 1888 who generously opened women up to facilitate for organsnatchers to go about their business in the morgues. THAT, if anything, is "guesswork".
But I have told you all of this many times already, as has most posters out here, and we have all come to realize that it is like pouring water on a goose. All we get in return is the stale old mumbling about how we are not willing to offer a fresh look at things, instead opring for the same old, same old. The pathetic thing about that is how you are completely unwilling to accept anything, no matter how fresh it is, if it is not in line with the nonsense you tout.

I really should not get drawn into these discussions with you. Nor should anybody else. It is a complete waste of time and energy, and it offers a scene for ideas that have no place in the real world.

Goodbye.

Again you put pen to paper without engaging your brain first.

I bet you have not even bothered to purchase and my book in which Dr Biggs covers in great detail all the issues you seek to rely on to prop up your theory

No one is suggesting multiple killers, that's your interpretation of my posts and you misguided belief that all the torsos were murdered by the same hand that murdered the Whitechapel victims of which if the torsos were murdered is the complete opposite of the killers MO to WM.

The suggestion is and has always been that the killer of Eddowes and Chapman did not remove the organs from the victims at the crime scene.

Your quote
"Starting with the ridiculous idea that a body cannot be cut up in many different ways, moving past the notion that victorian medicos were engaing in guesswork only
and finishing at the whopper of a suggestion that there were numerous killers on the loose in Whitechapel in 1888 who generously opened women up to facilitate for organ snatchers to go about their business in the morgues"

Again we evidence from you in making things up. No one not even I have suggested that the killer of these women was deliberately killing them for the purpose of removing organs and selling them on. Stop making things up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you not grasp the fact that if two bodies are taken to two different mortuaries and when examined and compared they show that the extractions were carried out by using two different methods, the first Chapman was a successful removal, the second a botched attempt at the removal, but in both cases anatomical knowledge was seen.

If it suggested the same killer,and that the killer removed the organs at the crime scene, why was he not able to remove Chapman organs in a proficient way? after successfully performing a much more difficult removal of Chapmans organs?

It seem to me that you have created a murder mystery about the Torsos where there is none to be created, basing your theory on the fact that the killer removed organs from the Whitechapel victims, so when the torsos were missing vital organs you think it was the same killer. I think you need to take a step back and re evaluate your research. Any body with a modicum of common sense can see your theory is flawed.

And I am still waiting for you to produce the evidence to show the actual causes of death of the torsos. I suspect I will be waiting a long time and I am out of this pointless discussion with you

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

And your replies are both predictable repetitive and boring.

Dr Biggs has told us that there are only so many ways to dismember a body and so you cannot on that basis prove that they were all dismembered by the same hand.

You can make clean cuts, and you can make frayed cuts, you can make straight cuts and you can make veering cuts, you can make deep cuts and you can make shallow ones, you can use six cuts to disjoint, or five, or seven, or eight, you can take apart a body at many places, you can saw through vertebrae and you can saw between them, you can ...

There are innumerable ways to take a body apart, Trevor, and Dr Biggs knows this too. If he does not, than he should change professions. Dr Hebbert knew this too. Otherwise, he would have said that the torso bodies were taken apart in the exact same manner as all other dismembered bodies for the reason that there are no to ways to do it. But no doctor would say such a thing.

The manner in whjich a body is cut up is completely and utterly instrumental in understanding how the cutting was done, what angling of the blade that was used, how much force was applierd, how skilled a cutter the person doing the cutting was and so on. Of course, if thwo bodies are cut un on ways that are in every respect similar, the inference must be that the cutter was the same person.

There is no further need for any doscusion of this. Take stock of it and stop misinforming about it.

Furthermore he has also told us that many of the Victorian doctors opinions can now be regarded as simply guesswork yes you seem to want to stand by these opinions despite being told something to the contrary.

"Many" of their opinions? Not all of them? Did he specify which exact opinions he spoke of? No? So you are only extending a generalized remark about how the victorians were not as advanced as we are to mean that all they did was guesswork?
I see.

These men were highly skilled medicos and they were quite capable of making comparisons between different kinds of wounds. End of.

The explanation for the difference between the person who removed the organs from Chapman and the person who removed the organs from Eddowes has been explained to you they had to have must have been two different people.

So if somebody cuts out a uterus without damaging it on one occasion, then he will do so on every occasion he tries it? Is that the basis on which your "fact" rests? he plain and simple truth is that we can not conclude any such thing at all. Nor did the contemporary medicos, although some allowed for two different killers. The same goes for todays students of the case - all things considered, our best guess is a common killer. Not two killers who opened up their respective victims´abdomens from sternum to groin and then abstained from taking any organs out.

If the organs found to be missing from Chapman and Eddowes were not taken by the killer, then there is the corroboration to Insp Reids statement that none of Kellys organs were taken away and besides there was no suggestion that any medical knowledge was shown in the removal of Kellys organs.

That reasoning is the same one that lies behind the theories of flying pigs, I´m afraid. And why on earth would we prioritize Reids ideas over the ideas of the rest of the people who - at the relevant stage - witnessed to the contrary?

Might I suggest to take time to read up on the workings of body dealers and the illicit trade in bodies and body parts in particular female body parts on the LVP

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

There are other matters that are much more urgent, Trevor. Starting with the ridiculous idea that a body cannot be cut up in many different ways, moving past the notion that victorian medicos were engaing in guesswork only and finishing at the whopper of a suggestion that there were numerous killers on the loose in Whitechapel in 1888 who generously opened women up to facilitate for organsnatchers to go about their business in the morgues. THAT, if anything, is "guesswork".
But I have told you all of this many times already, as has most posters out here, and we have all come to realize that it is like pouring water on a goose. All we get in return is the stale old mumbling about how we are not willing to offer a fresh look at things, instead opring for the same old, same old. The pathetic thing about that is how you are completely unwilling to accept anything, no matter how fresh it is, if it is not in line with the nonsense you tout.

I really should not get drawn into these discussions with you. Nor should anybody else. It is a complete waste of time and energy, and it offers a scene for ideas that have no place in the real world.

Goodbye.

[Trevor Marriott]

Valid causes of death? Phillips said in the Pinchin Street case that he believed that the cause of death was having the throat cut. And you? You harp on about how it is not proven.

Yawn. There is a difference between haunting and boring, you know.

And your replies are both predictable repetitive and boring.

Dr Biggs has told us that there are only so many ways to dismember a body and so you cannot on that basis prove that they were all dismembered by the same hand.

Furthermore he has also told us that many of the Victorian doctors opinions can now be regarded as simply guesswork yes you seem to want to stand by these opinions despite being told something to the contrary.

The explanation for the difference between the person who removed the organs from Chapman and the person who removed the organs from Eddowes has been explained to you they had to have must have been two different people.

If the organs found to be missing from Chapman and Eddowes were not taken by the killer, then there is the corroboration to Insp Reids statement that none of Kellys organs were taken away and besides there was no suggestion that any medical knowledge was shown in the removal of Kellys organs.

Might I suggest to take time to read up on the workings of body dealers and the illicit trade in bodies and body parts in particular female body parts on the LVP

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

My brain is highly active and more than a match to bring your madcap theories to task.

I fail to see what your reply and your insult has to do with my original post which was in relation to your suggestion that the torsos were the work of the same killer who was responsible for the WM by reason of your belief that the organs taken from the torsos were carried out in such a way to suggest it was the same killer and that this suggests that this shows they were all murdered by the same killer, and again you keep being told that murder cannot be established as fact in any of the torsos, other than opinion give by doctors based on nothing to support those opinions.

Since when do doctors base their views on nothing, Trevor? Charles Hebbert studied each cut extensively and he was able to say that the cuts in the four victims were similar in every respect.
That is not "nothing". It is powerful evidence.
And it is not as if there is only one way to cut somebody up. We know that Galloway, the examining medico in the Rainham case, was baffled by the exactitude and cleanliness of the cuts; straight angles, no fraying, all very exact. Seven cuts to disarticulate a joint, all of them neat and precise.
So we have a very unusual cutting technique and we have a total similarity between the bodies. We therefore have evidence that the women were killed by the same hand.

Of course the facts surrounding the WM are so different that no one only you could suggest they were all killed by the same person and its time you woke up to that fact.

Only me? You seem to have missed that the suggestion was pout forward back then and that is has been put forward afterwaards too, by for example Richard Whittington-Egan. And I can assure you that many people will accept it in days to come. I have little doubt that it will become middle-of-the-road stuff.

However I will reply to your post, you ask how many ways are there to remove specific organs well that would depend on the organ in question and the degree of difficulty in location and being able to remove that organ, and under what conditions, and whether speed for fear of detection was present.

You mentioned Chapman who was found to be missing a uterus but not only the uterus but with the Fallopian tubes attached. This clearly shows it was removed for medical research as confirmed by a modern day gynecologist.

Chapman and Eddowes were taken to two different mortuaries and again modern day medical experts state that two different methods of extraction were used to facilitate the uterus removal which clearly point to two different persons, that is also confirmed by the fact that the organs from Eddowes were damaged in the attempt to remove them and Chapmans wasnt. In Eddowes case the kidney was damaged. So we have two organs that were damaged so how could his have happened, The answer is twofold. either the person removing them was less experienced than the person who removed the organs from Chapman or the person removing the organs from Eddowes damaged them in haste for fear of detection

So, let´s see here - you say that two dofferent persons did the organ taking in Chapmans and Eddowes´ respective cases. And that explains the differences.

But it does. not explain why the cutter in Eddowes´ case damaged both of the organs he tried to take out, does it? Supposedly, your phantom cutter did what he did for financial gain. So why was he not more careful? And why did he not take out other organs, after having failed with the two first ones?
Moving onto Chaopman, the real elephant in the room comes into sight.
The killer cut her open from sternum to groin. At the scene, not in the mortuary.
He then proceeded to remove the intestines, by cutting them loose form the mesenteric attachments and throwing them up over Chapmans shoulder. At the scene, not in the mortuary. This gave free access to the innards, that were otherwise hidden by the intestines.
Basically, he opened the cookie jar, he cut the plastic lid inside the cookie jar open and lifted it away from the cookies ...
... and then he left, without having helped himself to the cookies.
This is why people say that your theory is ridiculous, Trevor. And I know, you don´t care that people claim this, you strive on anyway. We are the same in that respect. You say that if I had adjusted to your advice, people would perhaps listen to me. But just like you, I do not regard ripperology as a popularity contest. I call things as I see them-
So that´s where we are alike.
The difference between us is that you are in dire need of taking the advice to dump your theory, whereas I am in no such position at all. And that owes to how I am rational, whereas you are not.
There are very widereaching similarities between the two series. Eviscerating serial killers are very rare. That combination of matters points straight to a connection, regardless of how it hurts you to hear it.

I will cover Kelly now it is a fact that all the body parts were strewn about the room and none were found to be missing according to Insp Reid. The doctors said no anatomical knowledge had been used to take out the organs. So if the killer was taking organs he could have had a field day by taking away almost every organ. But we see no evidence of that and we have no clear evidence what happened to the body when it left Millers Court other than it was taken to the mortuary.

But the organs were taken out! And so, if you want to press ytour theory, you need to claim that Kelly was not slain by the same killer. She was instead killed by somebody else - who just happned to cut away the abdominal wall in large flaps, just as the case was with Chapman.
You see, the evidence is clear and unambiguous: Whoever killed Chapman also killed Kelly. And whoever that was, it was somebody who had a flair for cutting out organs. It is a no brainer.

I hope this helps to clear up these issues you have raised, but I fear that you will again bury your head in the sand and then come up with more questions in answer to questions which is a favorite trait of yours. As to the torsos perhaps when you come up with valid causes of death of these women people may then take you seriously, until then the other plausible explanations for their demise will continue to haunt you.


www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Valid causes of death? Phillips said in the Pinchin Street case that he believed that the cause of death was having the throat cut. And you? You harp on about how it is not proven.

Yawn. There is a difference between haunting and boring, you know.

[Trevor Marriott]

How many ways are there to remove a body part? Many. One such way is to remove a uterus whole and another way is to remove it in pieces.

Why did the rascals who removed Eddowes´ uterus and kidney not remove them undamaged? I don´t think you have given us a useful answer to that riddle, Trevor? And once they failed to remove the left kidney in one piece, why did they not take the right kidney out to make good on their failure?

Why did they not take all the organs from her?

Why did they not take all organs from Chapman?

And Kelly? Were they in place in Dorset Street after the killer, extracting the organs and forgetting to bring them along as they left?

The only organ truly lacking in your theory is a brain, Trevor.

My brain is highly active and more than a match to bring your madcap theories to task.

I fail to see what your reply and your insult has to do with my original post which was in relation to your suggestion that the torsos were the work of the same killer who was responsible for the WM by reason of your belief that the organs taken from the torsos were carried out in such a way to suggest it was the same killer and that this suggests that this shows they were all murdered by the same killer, and again you keep being told that murder cannot be established as fact in any of the torsos, other than opinion give by doctors based on nothing to support those opinions

Of course the facts surrounding the WM are so different that no one only you could suggest they were all killed by the same person and its time you woke up to that fact.

However I will reply to your post, you ask how many ways are there to remove specific organs well that would depend on the organ in question and the degree of difficulty in location and being able to remove that organ, and under what conditions, and whether speed for fear of detection was present.

You mentioned Chapman who was found to be missing a uterus but not only the uterus but with the Fallopian tubes attached. This clearly shows it was removed for medical research as confirmed by a modern day gynecologist.

Chapman and Eddowes were taken to two different mortuaries and again modern day medical experts state that two different methods of extraction were used to facilitate the uterus removal which clearly point to two different persons, that is also confirmed by the fact that the organs from Eddowes were damaged in the attempt to remove them and Chapmans wasnt. In Eddowes case the kidney was damaged. So we have two organs that were damaged so how could his have happened, The answer is twofold. either the person removing them was less experienced than the person who removed the organs from Chapman or the person removing the organs from Eddowes damaged them in haste for fear of detection

I will cover Kelly now it is a fact that all the body parts were strewn about the room and none were found to be missing according to Insp Reid. The doctors said no anatomical knowledge had been used to take out the organs. So if the killer was taking organs he could have had a field day by taking away almost every organ. But we see no evidence of that and we have no clear evidence what happened to the body when it left Millers Court other than it was taken to the mortuary.

I hope this helps to clear up these issues you have raised, but I fear that you will again bury your head in the sand and then come up with more questions in answer to questions which is a favorite trait of yours. As to the torsos perhaps when you come up with valid causes of death of these women people may then take you seriously, until then the other plausible explanations for their demise will continue to haunt you.


www.trevormarriott.co.uk