Stride..a victim?

[Trevor Marriott]

Never doubted that.

Something that was mentioned at school concerning life before anesthetics.

We are seeking a professional with decades of experience.

Not on your nellie !!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

According to the Morning Advertiser 3 Oct, Leon Goldstein was a member of the club and persuaded to go to the police by Wess;

"W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller."

Thanks Joshua.

Michael said that Mrs Mortimer was on her doorstep at 12.55 because that was the time that Goldstein passed but I can't find out if Goldstein actually said specifically what time he'd passed.

[DJA]

Not on your nellie !!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Crikey! Even looks like you Trev.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

PARENTAL ADVISORY
EXPLICIT CONTENT

I'm not inclined to throw this thread off its' natural course; however, JOSHUA, I know you as a member who is a collector of the written material circa 1888. I "stumbled" upon a book that was discussed on this forum in 2003 by Fido & his peers. I was looking for an underbelly book from 1888 that might illuminate all these transgressions that were going on in back alleys in L8nd8n; if the volumes of books have any merit, a passageway wall would have been the Ritz Carlton for some couples. To say that Victorian couples were fiddling anywhere and everywhere once the sun set is the grossest understatement ever written on this forum; and, I don't mean lovebirds when I employ the term "couples". I did a search-term read through the volumes [I swear, DJA, it was purely for historical merit]; I'm certain that there's no way to save my soul now regardless of how many Our Fathers I say. The book is called My Secret Life. I don't recommend anyone reading it who is sheepish to know the ugly truth about how a client or prostitute conducted themselves in 1888. However it does throw some light on how "gay women" monitored the constable, how they were more inclined to lead a client to a secluded place, how the coarseness of their language was 40-grit, and how gateways and passageways and park benches and recesses were "just as good as any place else".

I've got "My Secret Life" by 'Walter', and I can't really recommend reading it to anyone. It has historical relevance, but it's been much disputed as to how accurate it is or whether it's just misogynistic fiction.

There's a fair bit of literature on the working classes out there that demonstrates, perhaps more modestly than Walter, that personal dalliances were often outdoors, on account of it being the only option in overcrowded households.

[FrankO]

Thanks Joshua.

Michael said that Mrs Mortimer was on her doorstep at 12.55 because that was the time that Goldstein passed but I can't find out if Goldstein actually said specifically what time he'd passed.

Hi Herlock,

In his report of 19 October 1888, Chief Inspector Donald Swanson stated: "About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before."

It's written a bit crookedly if you'd ask me, but it was "about 1 a.m." when Mortimer saw Goldstein pass.

[Trevor Marriott]

Crikey! Even looks like you Trev.

You should look up the diference between a Nellie and Nessie !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FrankO]

Why do you assume that Smith couldn't have been correct in the time that he passed?

I don't know if, and if so, why Michael assumes Smith couldn't have been correct, but I can tell you why I think he might have been.

Let's assume that Blackwell was correct in his timings of 1:16 a.m. If we then look at Edward Johnson, his assistant, we see that he stated that he arrived 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell did. So, Johnson arrived at 1:12 or 1:13. And the moment Johnson was arriving, Smith, who had arrived at the scene shortly before, was being sent for the ambulance. Smith arrived after Lamb, who arrived 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell (so, at 1:04 to 1:06 a.m.) This means that Smith must have arrived between 1:06 and 1:12 a.m.. If we'd agree that 1:08 – 1:09 a.m. seems a safe guess, then he arrived at the crime scene 8 or 9 minutes later than his estimate of 1:00 a.m.. If we’d count back from 1:08 – 1:09 to when he saw Stride & companion opposite Dutfield’s Yard on his round before, then we’d arrive at 12:38/12:39 – 12:43/12:44 a.m.

Also see Gavin Bromley’s (long) dissertation on Smith’s beat, it’s an interesting read:
https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...iths-beat.html

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

In his report of 19 October 1888, Chief Inspector Donald Swanson stated: "About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before."

It's written a bit crookedly if you'd ask me, but it was "about 1 a.m." when Mortimer saw Goldstein pass.

Hello Frank,

I certainly sounds strange that Goldstein would go to Leman Street Station at 1am but that's how it's written. Maybe it was when he found out that Mrs Mortimer had seen him? Or maybe it was when a friend persuaded him to present himself; especially if he was initially reluctant to get involved? I don't know. When Michael specifically said 12.55 I wondered if he'd seen a quote from Goldstein stating that time?

[Wickerman]

It's the way Swanson writes, I've had issues with the way he structures his sentences before.
You'll notice where he writes; "...with a black bag at that hour....".
The only 'hour' previously made reference to is "about 1 a.m.". at the start of his note.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't know if, and if so, why Michael assumes Smith couldn't have been correct, but I can tell you why I think he might have been.

Let's assume that Blackwell was correct in his timings of 1:16 a.m. If we then look at Edward Johnson, his assistant, we see that he stated that he arrived 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell did. So, Johnson arrived at 1:12 or 1:13. And the moment Johnson was arriving, Smith, who had arrived at the scene shortly before, was being sent for the ambulance. Smith arrived after Lamb, who arrived 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell (so, at 1:04 to 1:06 a.m.) This means that Smith must have arrived between 1:06 and 1:12 a.m.. If we'd agree that 1:08 – 1:09 a.m. seems a safe guess, then he arrived at the crime scene 8 or 9 minutes later than his estimate of 1:00 a.m.. If we’d count back from 1:08 – 1:09 to when he saw Stride & companion opposite Dutfield’s Yard on his round before, then we’d arrive at 12:38/12:39 – 12:43/12:44 a.m.

Also see Gavin Bromley’s (long) dissertation on Smith’s beat, it’s an interesting read:
https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...iths-beat.html

Cheers Frank, I'll give that one a read when I (hopefully) get my iPad fixed next week. The article is too long to read on my phone.

[caz]

Sounds like Mrs M and Goldstein were in close harmony about when the former saw the latter passing down Berner Street. Probably because Mrs M recalled seeing the man pass by just before she went indoors to hit the sack. I imagine Goldstein narrowly missed the arrival of Diemschutz's cart.

Love,

Caz
X

[FrankO]

Hello Frank,

I certainly sounds strange that Goldstein would go to Leman Street Station at 1am but that's how it's written. Maybe it was when he found out that Mrs Mortimer had seen him? Or maybe it was when a friend persuaded him to present himself; especially if he was initially reluctant to get involved? I don't know. When Michael specifically said 12.55 I wondered if he'd seen a quote from Goldstein stating that time?

Hi Herlock,

The Morning Advertiser & Daily News of 3 October carried the following snippet, which sheds some light on the matter:

"Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory."

So, it seems that Goldstein went with Wess to the Leman Street police station on the night of 1 or 2 October, between 10 and 11 o'clock. So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he made his statement, rather than the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him. And so, as Jon writes, it was just the crooked way in which Swanson wrote.

All the best,
Frank

[Michael W Richards]

I don't know the answer to that one, Herlock.

It does appear that Fanny must have gone to bed around 1am, with no concerns that anything untoward had been going on. And if Michael's theory is that the club men were lying scumbags who were trying to pervert the course of justice because they suspected one of their own of cutting Stride's throat on their premises, how is it that he relies on their timings for any of this, 'corroborated' or not? If they did find the woman bleeding to death at 12.40-12.45, and wanted to delay raising the alarm, why did they not all sing from the same hymn sheet and have Diemschutz arriving to discover her dead at 1am, just like he said he did? Again, I seem to be missing something crucial to Michael's argument.

Love,

Caz
X

Because you seem to have a habit of twisting whats said to suit your own arguments against it, ...Ive said the people who lied are the people who make money from the club. They have motives for lying, the other witnesses for those times and event do not. Ive said when 4 people give the same time and events, and others do not have any corroboration for what they said they saw and did during that same time frame at the same location, that the 4 corroborated are more probably the truth, ....Ive said that Israel, Morris and Lave and Diemshitz all have no corroboration at all, and Ive quoted what Fanny said and showed where she has corroboration. Ive said that because Fanny was at her door until just after 1 and did not see or hear any cart or horse or Diemshitz, that his arrival "precisely at 1" is provably bullshit.

The fact that youd try and dispute any of that is telling. Forget the fact its annoying for the moment.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

The Morning Advertiser & Daily News of 3 October carried the following snippet, which sheds some light on the matter:

"Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory."

So, it seems that Goldstein went with Wess to the Leman Street police station on the night of 1 or 2 October, between 10 and 11 o'clock. So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he made his statement, rather than the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him. And so, as Jon writes, it was just the crooked way in which Swanson wrote.

All the best,
Frank

Thanks for that Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
3 of the 4 witnesses that say they were alerted to the body came from inside the club, one estimated that since his return at 12:30 he spent 10 minutes inside before being summoned. All three had access to a clock inside the club, and all 3 give their time of first being aware as 12:40

They had access to a clock and yet one had to estimate that he'd been in the club for 10 minutes since 12.30. Why didn't he say "i checked the clock and it was 12.40?"

Was Berner Street heavy with traffic in the wee small hours? Mortimer hearing a cart was overwhelmingly likely to have been Diemschutz (who had checked the time by a clock around a minute ago )

This is fairly simple. The men were wrong and Diemschutz arrived at just after 1.00. Mortimer heard him. He found the body. Mortimer missed the Schwartz episode because she'd gone back inside (or she was simply a lying busybody) I find it easier to believe that someone like her might want to appear or feel important than I do to believe that Schwartz just makes up a story to place himself at the scene of a murder when he wasn't there.

Did they serve alcohol in the club by the way?