Stride..a victim?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I may be misremembering here, Herlock, but I think it has been established that the construction of the doors was such as to disenable anybody hiding behind them - there was simply not the space available for it.

I will go looking for a substantiation, but while I do, maybe sonebody who recalls the same can verify what I am saying?

Cheers Fish

[Herlock Sholmes]

The contemporary drawing attached to the following post, would seem to show the same or similar gate as the photo.
Berner Street - Drawing from Ipswich Journal



Sure, but which one - 0, 10, 30, or 60 seconds?

I'm only going on Tom Wescott's research. If you can refute it then fine.

Even if it was it was still very dark as Diemschutz went inside for a light. A man can hide in shadows.

In addition wasn't there an outside loo opposite the side door?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Looking at another photograph in Hutchinson's book at the entrance of the yard with people standing on either side I can certainly see that it would have been, at best, an extremely tight fit behind the gate. So perhaps the gate wasn't an option?

[caz]

The lack of mutilation and organ removal are always open to doubt, but we do know that if Liz was murdered by 'Jack', it's a location that doesn't match his perceived MO. It wasn't remote, it wasn't quiet. There was a club full of noisy Jewish singers.

That may have been the point though, Al. If he couldn't have mutilated safely in that location, but he'd set his sights on Stride, he'd have needed her to go elsewhere with him.

What we don't know is where Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly were, when they first met their killer. We only know the locations where they ended up together, which allowed him to do what he did each time. If killer and victim tended to walk together from a busier street where they had hooked up, to a location where they could both enjoy some privacy, he could have spotted Stride somewhere [possibly outside the club, or earlier on the Whitechapel Road, or hanging around a pub] and assumed she would be no different, but she flatly refused to leave the club premises with him. She may have had a reason for being there that had nothing to do with this man, or it was a case of safety in numbers, especially if she didn't like the look of him and he was being quite persistent. After all, she must have been very much aware of the three murders over recent weeks of vulnerable women much like herself, out alone at night. That would have made her survival instincts a bit keener than the previous victims, whose circumstances were also more desperate than hers. We just don't know how her killer might have reacted to being snubbed, whoever he was. If this was 'Jack' he couldn't have physically dragged her to a quieter location, and if he got too agitated with her, she'd suspect he wasn't just after a quickie in the nearest yard or doorway. He had the option of giving up, but he also had the option of giving her what for. I don't know how it's possible to guess that the man who murdered Eddowes was the type to have simply shrugged and walked away from Stride, had she spoiled his plans an hour earlier.

Love,

Caz
X

[rjpalmer]

had she spoiled his plans an hour earlier.

An hour earlier? So much for the accuracy of a certain document unearthed in Liverpool.

“Within the quarter of the hour I found another dirty bitch willing to sell her wares.”

You'd almost think that our favorite Scouser made an all-too-casual reading of Donald Rumbelow and drew a wrong conclusion.




(My apologies for the interruption, please carry on. RP)

[caz]

Then you say that throat cutting was a common method of killing in Victorian times. I'll throw this out to researchers. How many prostitutes (or just women if you like) were murdered by having there throats cut in the Late Victorian Period?

Hi Herlock,

I think this is a misleading argument from Trev, because he is not comparing like for like. Similarly when he claims there was a 50/50 chance of any murder being committed outdoors. We are talking about unsolved, motiveless murders of penniless women - not gang related killings or muggings.

A poster called Septic Blue [real name Colin Roberts IIRC] did a lot of work on murder statistics in the late 1880s, concentrating on unsolved murders of adult women by knife [which would have included Martha Tabram] in the whole of England. I can't remember exactly what the numbers were each year, but they were extremely low, with something like eleven such murders in 1887, and eleven again in 1889, which was about average for the decade, but sixteen or seventeen in 1888, producing a spike that would be accounted for by the five or six in Whitechapel alone between August and November that year.

In an era decades before the term serial murder was even coined, they knew something very unusual was going on, and the statistics bear this out. Women like Stride were not routinely preyed on outdoors and found dead from fatal knife wounds, even in the seediest parts of the country.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

An hour earlier? So much for the accuracy of a certain document unearthed in Liverpool.

“Within the quarter of the hour I found another dirty bitch willing to sell her wares.”

You'd almost think that our favorite Scouser made an all-too-casual reading of Donald Rumbelow and drew a wrong conclusion.




(My apologies for the interruption, please carry on. RP)

An hour earlier than the murder of Eddowes, RJ, for those who assume she was seen alive with her killer by the three witnesses near Mitre Square.

Are you turning into David Barrat, and misreading my posts?

How about quoting the whole sentence, so nobody could accuse you of misleading anyone?

I don't know how it's possible to guess that the man who murdered Eddowes was the type to have simply shrugged and walked away from Stride, had she spoiled his plans an hour earlier.

Love,

Caz
X

[rjpalmer]

An hour earlier than the murder of Eddowes, RJ, for those who assume she was seen alive with her killer by the three witnesses near Mitre Square.

Are you turning into David Barrat, and misreading my posts?

How about quoting the whole sentence, so nobody could accuse you of misleading anyone?

Outside of quantum mechanics, I'm still one of those old schoolers that believes time generally moves forward in a predictably linear fashion.

The quarter of an hour 'Maybrick' mentions is the time between leaving Stride dead in the mud and finding Kate Eddowes. Do you think 'quarter of an hour' is historically plausible? He would have been nearly racing towards his final destination, no, crystal ball in hand?

If this is not plausible, what source would have led the diarist to believe 'a quarter of a hour' was historically accurate?

These were the years before Ivor Edwards and similar chaps measured every nook and cranny of East London with a yardstick, and published their results, so, outside of Rumbelow, where did our Liverpudlian get the idea that the walk from Dutfield's Yard to Mitre Square took fifteen minutes? Why not ten? Twenty?

I stick to my point. She's cribbed it straight from Don Rumbelow and from the top of the chapter, no less.

But again, I apologize for my aside. This really ought to be discussed elsewhere.

[caz]

I dont think even you would dispute that Polly and Annie were killed while trawling for customers, so....where is the proof Liz, Kate and Mary were doing the same? Or does your Ripper fellow change what is at the core of how he finds victims? I know some would imagine he also holes up in warehouses making torso's as a sideline..

I don't think I claimed there was actual proof that Stride, Eddowes or Kelly were out looking for men with money, although you seem to believe that Eddowes was trying to blackmail her killer, and Abberline believed that Kelly had asked to borrow money from Hutchinson. My suggestion in Stride's case was that her killer may have made an assumption about what she was doing hanging around a men's club at that hour on her lonesome. Peter Sutcliffe wasn't fussy, was he? Many of his victims were killed while soliciting, but far from all of them.

None of this is worth anything in the investigations anyway, clearly 1 man did trawl for working street women, and just as clearly 3 of the 5 Canonical cannot be proven to have been so engaged at the time they die. The evidence wins,...and all this MO morphing and interruption fantasizing is just to try and perpetuate myths. Dream all you like, its not like any of these killers are still on the loose, nor is it likely that a majority of people will use only the evidence to figure these out...so, have at it. Maybe put him on a great black steed too. All that these "most other posters" do is regurgitate the same old tired mythologies and try to make them seem more palatable by finding some serial killer stats that they hope will validate their imaginative perspectives. But this isnt just playtime for me, I actually am interested in truths. Which after all this time here, still seem elusive to most.

But people see the evidence differently, Michael. The same evidence may be seized on as highly relevant by some of us, or ignored as irrelevant by others.

Again, you insult everyone here by suggesting you are the only one who is interested enough in the truth to see what that truth is, while for anyone else it's just 'playtime'. Why would I be dreaming of a serial killer if I didn't genuinely believe the evidence overwhelmingly indicates one?

[caz]

Outside of quantum mechanics, I'm still one of those old schoolers that believes time generally moves forward in a predictably linear fashion.

The quarter of an hour 'Maybrick' mentions is the time between leaving Stride dead in the mud and finding Kate Eddowes. Do you think 'quarter of an hour' is historically plausible? He would have been nearly racing towards his final destination, no, crystal ball in hand?

If this is not plausible, what source would have led the diarist to believe 'a quarter of a hour' was historically accurate?

These were the years before Ivor Edwards and similar chaps measured every nook and cranny of East London with a yardstick, and published their results, so, outside of Rumbelow, where did our Liverpudlian get the idea that the walk from Dutfield's Yard to Mitre Square took fifteen minutes? Why not ten? Twenty?

I stick to my point. She's cribbed it straight from Don Rumbelow and from the top of the chapter, no less.

But again, I apologize for my aside. This really ought to be discussed elsewhere.

Indeed it should. Wrong place, wrong poster.

If you want an argument about the diary, and what would have been 'historically plausible' for James Maybrick to have written, you need to go to a Maybrick thread and find yourself a Maybrick believer to argue the toss with. You already know what I think about your clumsy attempts to accuse Anne Graham of a hoax without having the guts to use her name. Did you think nobody would notice if you did it here?

We don't know precisely when or where Eddowes encountered her killer, nor how long they were together before he was able to murder her in Mitre Square. We only know roughly when the two bodies were found, and there was roughly an hour, give or take, between the discoveries. We also know that it would have taken anyone roughly 15 minutes to walk from the first location to the second, so it's anyone's guess, if one man killed both [and nobody can know either way] where and when his path crossed with Eddowes's.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I think this is a misleading argument from Trev, because he is not comparing like for like. Similarly when he claims there was a 50/50 chance of any murder being committed outdoors. We are talking about unsolved, motiveless murders of penniless women - not gang related killings or muggings.

A poster called Septic Blue [real name Colin Roberts IIRC] did a lot of work on murder statistics in the late 1880s, concentrating on unsolved murders of adult women by knife [which would have included Martha Tabram] in the whole of England. I can't remember exactly what the numbers were each year, but they were extremely low, with something like eleven such murders in 1887, and eleven again in 1889, which was about average for the decade, but sixteen or seventeen in 1888, producing a spike that would be accounted for by the five or six in Whitechapel alone between August and November that year.

In an era decades before the term serial murder was even coined, they knew something very unusual was going on, and the statistics bear this out. Women like Stride were not routinely preyed on outdoors and found dead from fatal knife wounds, even in the seediest parts of the country.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caz,

Thanks for that. Yes I hadn't got any figures but I was fairly certain that there wasn't a throat cutting cull going on Hardly commonplace.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't want to harp on but I'll try once more. Can any poster suggest what would constitute evidence of Stride's killer being interrupted (short of a crystal ball of course?)

[c.d.]

But people see the evidence differently, Michael. The same evidence may be seized on as highly relevant by some of us, or ignored as irrelevant by others.

Exactly. That is why jurors disagree even though they were all presented with the same evidence.

c.d.

[caz]

Like the blackmail theories, this suggestion is verging on 'blame the victim' territory.
Consider the possibility that this is fodder for people like Hallie Rubenhold.

Why the hostility? It was a perfectly reasonable suggestion from Scott Nelson that something a victim said or did - or failed to say or do, if you prefer - could have caused a violent reaction in the extremely violent, deranged maniac who was active in the area at the time. How is this anywhere near 'blame the victim' territory?

The women were all vulnerable whenever they ventured out onto the streets alone at night. If some went off meekly with any male stranger, and some didn't, how could any of them be blamed for the violent actions of their killer?

[c.d.]

In Stride's case, the fact that she was found to be carrying no coins is close to proof she was not soliciting that night.

Even if true it doesn't mean that she could not have been a Ripper victim. How could Jack have known why she was out by herself late at night?

c.d.