Is Jack someone we have never heard of?

[RivkahChaya]

Did it not occurr to you and obviousl not the doctors at the time that she may have simply bled to death during some for of an operation which went wrong.

If your "operation" is an abortion, then you still have to make it plausible that a woman who is seven months pregnant would seek an abortion, when, at that point, abortion is going to be an ordeal pretty much just like childbirth.

Not to mention, that some women go into labor at seven months, and some women hemorrhage during labor, and that happens more often in premature labor.

It's difficult to imagine that it isn't possible to concoct a plausible story of Jackson going into natural labor, and dying during delivery, the baby also dying because it is too premature. It would hardly be necessary to butcher and dismember her to make it look like some kind of Ripper murder just to cover his tracks.

Whoever your imaginary quasi-doctor is, as long as Jackson is missing, in the morgue, or even just an open police case, he runs the risk of her somehow being traced back to him. If he (or she-- midwives were also abortionists sometimes) has her cleared as a natural death, albeit tragic, during childbirth, then there is no looking over his shoulder.

It just seems like you are going out of your way to insist on a less likely scenario than one that is easy and obvious.

[Debra A]

Did it not occurr to you and obviousl not the doctors at the time that she may have simply bled to death during some for of an operation which went wrong.

Forget what the doctors said there was no evidence of foul play so where is the evidence to show she was murdered. The doctors could not prove foul play they simply "presumed" she had been murdered as I said previous it was farcical.

This has over the years led to another ill conceived myth known as "The Torso Murders"

I am pointing out what is in the official records regarding these four torso cases, nothing else. You, Trevor, as usual, are trying to wipe out the historical record because it doesn't agree with a theory you have. This much has occurred to me and I am sure others too.

There's none so blinkered as those with a suspect known to have never committed a mutilation murder or removed an organ.
Desperate times...

[RivkahChaya]

There's none so blinkered as those with a suspect known to have never committed a mutilation murder or removed an organ.

[Debra A]

PS: Debra, in case it's not clear, I'm totally agreeing with you.

My apologies if I sounded dismissive but Trevor is like the casebook dementor and saps all my energy.

[Errata]

Did it not occurr to you and obviousl not the doctors at the time that she may have simply bled to death during some for of an operation which went wrong.

Forget what the doctors said there was no evidence of foul play so where is the evidence to show she was murdered. The doctors could not prove foul play they simply "presumed" she had been murdered as I said previous it was farcical.

This has over the years led to another ill conceived myth known as "The Torso Murders"

Women do bleed to death from illegal abortions. Typically if the sharp instrument inserted through the cervix punctures the uterine wall,and cuts it. But that takes hours. Even a day. The wound is small but is kept open by the uterine contraction induced by the procedure. It is a slow death. Women do bleed to death if the placenta rips away from the uterine wall, but that usually happens during labor. It cannot happen during an abortion because the fetus is in the way. You would have to cut through the fetus to get to the placenta. Which is impossible in someone so far along in a pregnancy.

Remember that the surest sign of an abortion having been performed lies in the uterus of the mother, and in the fetus itself. The fetus was intact. And if an illegal abortion had been performed, and they were trying to cover it up, why send the fetus down the Thames in a jar in some sick Moses like fashion? If the fetus had not been intact, and in fact had been aborted, they might as well have left it a the police station door gift wrapped with a note that says "I performed this abortion".

[RivkahChaya]

My apologies if I sounded dismissive but Trevor is like the casebook dementor and saps all my energy.

Sometimes I ramble, and it's possible even for me to lose track of my original point. We're good.

Women do bleed to death from illegal abortions.

Well, for that matter, they can bleed to death from ordinary childbirth. There's a condition called placenta previa, where the placenta blocks the cervical opening. Some women with it end up on bed rest for their last month, and at any rate, these days, it's pretty rare not to know about it in advance, and be able to deliver the baby by c-section. If a woman with the condition goes into labor, there's usually blood in the amniotic water, when it "breaks." If this happens, a woman needs a c-section in a hurry, and it's one of the few things can actually cause death in the 21st century. If you hear about a woman who had a home birth dying, that is often what happened, and it's one of the reasons that certified midwives do home deliveries only for women who have been cleared of such complications by OBs.

Now, placenta previa is rare, but but not so rare that any doctor or midwife won't have seen it several times. I don't know what happened when doctors or midwives were presented with this in 1888. They may have tried to cut through the placenta, and then get it out as fast as possible, and tie it off, which if they could manage it, would probably kill the baby, but had at least a chance of saving the woman. I imagine death was pretty common, though. But I also imagine that such pregnancies self-terminated more often back then, before they were advanced enough to cause a women to lose enough blood to die. That last is just a guess, though.

At any rate, the fact that such things did happen, and women died of them, serves my earlier point, that there are a lot of other ways to cover a botched abortion/induction/"operation," other than trying to make it look like the woman had been a Ripper victim.

[RivkahChaya]

Statistics

This cartoon came out recently, and it makes a nice point about statistics (or, the misuse thereof):



The cartoonist makes fun of the way the media use statistics, as a recurring theme. More at xkcd.com.

[Debra A]

Forget what the doctors said there was no evidence of foul play so where is the evidence to show she was murdered. The doctors could not prove foul play they simply "presumed" she had been murdered as I said previous it was farcical.

As there appear to be several 'surgeons' and midwives charged with 'willful murder' after the death of women they were believed to have performed an illegal operation on, I am guessing a 'willful murder' verdict at inquest was a perfectly legal finding for a death where this was suspected?

[harry]

In answer to the threads question,my answer is,"no".

[Trevor Marriott]

As there appear to be several 'surgeons' and midwives charged with 'willful murder' after the death of women they were believed to have performed an illegal operation on, I am guessing a 'willful murder' verdict at inquest was a perfectly legal finding for a death where this was suspected?

Suspected but not proven so the verdict should have been left open. By reaching a verdict of wilful murder it has resulted in the myth now known as The Torso Murders which themselves have been linked to the The Whitechapel Murders which clearly they are not.

[Debra A]

Suspected but not proven so the verdict should have been left open. By reaching a verdict of wilful murder it has resulted in the myth now known as The Torso Murders which themselves have been linked to the The Whitechapel Murders which clearly they are not.

The Whitechapel murders and torso cases have only ever been linked by modern authors twisting facts to push suspects.
Doctors and police at the time did not link them to the WM, although the press implied a link.
The two doctors who performed detailed autopsies on all four cases thought there was a distinct similarity in the way the bodies were cut up and precise disarticulation of the joints. A sharp knife and fine toothed saw was used in a similar fashion in all four cases.
There can be no link to abortion with all four cases as the remains found at Rainham showed no pregnancy, the uterus being that of a virgin and probably unlikely to conceive. With Pinchin Street the woman was found to have recently menstruated and no sign of pregnancy were discovered.

These are the facts I am stating on this thread. I have no idea what the hell you are trying to disprove to be honest.
When I posted details of the abdominal mutilations on all four cases it was to dispel the myth that these four torso were perfectly in tact with just limbs removed. Mentioning all the facts as I have no agenda.

[RavenDarkendale]

Is JtR someone we have never heard of? Quite possible. But never suspected? You must remember that hundreds were questioned in the course of the investigation. I think they did have JtR in for questioning as a suspect. However a man who could coolly cut up a body within the time the Police Constable returned on his beat and escape unseen would be totally calm under fire. He would have plausible explanations for every question and act so inconspicuous as to be allowed to walk away free.

Recall how the police actually returned a victim that had escaped to Jeffery Dalmer. How Ted Bundy help to run a suicide hotline and was undoubtedly responsible for saving lives by talking people out of it. How Gacy acted as a clown who visited children in the hospital. JtR was one of these monsters, able to stand questioning and pass as innocent while almost smelling of fire and brimstone.

[Semper_Eadem]

I've always wondered if a Doctor/Med Student practising an illicit abortion trade secretly in Whitechapel might have been thought to be the Ripper by the folk of Whitechapel when he actually wasn't JTR.

It could be that accounts of sightings of this abortionist sneaking about Whitechapel were garbled with the JTR sightings or that this male abortionist was thought to be the Ripper but was not an abortionist but just a doctor or medical student trying to earn some extra cash by doing an illicit abortions on Prostitutes or anybody else excepting. Just food for thought.


S_E

[Lechmere]

Two doctors - the senior one with a track record for changing his findings to suit the preconceived notions if his non medically trained police boss.

[Debra A]

Two doctors - the senior one with a track record for changing his findings to suit the preconceived notions if his non medically trained police boss.

Allegedly.