Is Jack someone we have never heard of?

[Phil H]

The inter-relationships of the murders (as I see them) at the moment could be:

Thames torso-killer (probably operating south of the River and with a place of his own - which Jack did not have) responsible for ALL the torsos and the Pichen St torso, perhaps placed as a "taunt" to Jack. (The Lechmere connection, on this analysis, would be a coincidence merely.)

"Jack" - killed Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes - perhaps McKenzie (when he was ill and in a weakened state).

Stride - Kidney for personal revenge.

Kelly - an intimate for personal reasons, but trying to do what he had read Jack had done. (Flemming? Barnett?)

Tabram probably killed by at least two men - maybe soldiers. Martha may have tried to con one of them and he called his mate.

Smith - said a gang attacked her, probably no intention of killing her. BUT, I wonder whether "Jack" witnessed the attack, fantasised about it and this started him on his own spree.

Coles - Sadler or another hand.

I reserve the possibility that Eddowes and Kelly may have been somehow embroiled in a Fenian-related crime.

Phil H

[Phil H]

The timing of his suicide was very inconvenient

Not least for Monty Druitt. It completely ruined his Christmas plans. And having to travel out to a place like Chiswick....

[Lechmere]

On cat's meat selling - I can't help but note that Charles Lechmere's mother is listed in the 1891 census as being in the cat meat business and she lived very close to Pinchin Street. Cable Street - very close.
Also Charles Lechmere used to live in Pinchin Street (in 1861), as did his mother in 1881 (she had subsequently moved and moved back).
Charles Lechmere's second step father died soon after the discovery of the Pinchin Street torso so it could be speculated that he was in hospital and their Cable Street house was available for Charles Lechmere to use.
No other body parts relating to the Pinchin Street torso were found and it wasn't very near the Thames. It isn't really very like the other torso killings.

On the issue of whether Jack was someone we haven't heard of - Charles Lechmere is someone who 'Ripperology' hadn't heard of. Until recently.
Read any average book on the Ripper case and Charles Lechmere's involvement is mishandled. And I am not going on about his name swap.
It is commonly said as a fact hat he went over to look at Polly's body because he thought she was a discarded tarpaulin that he wanted to swipe. He said he thought she was a tarpaulin (possibly because he wanted to emphasise that he didn't know it was a dead body) but nothing about wanting to swipe it.
In my 'Mamouth Book of Jack the Ripper', it says :
'He thought it was a tarpaulin sheet and crossed the road to see if he could salvage it'
In the same book it says:
'Her body was discovered in Buck's Row by George Cross, a carman, who went in search of a constable, and subsequently returned to the scene with PC Mizen...'
I'm only picking on the Mamouth book in homage to the references already made on this thread to that tome - to try and keep on topic as much as possible.

[Abby Normal]

Oh, I do keep a very open mind, Fisherman. I've been researching and posting about the torso murders for a very large amount of time. I just thought domestics couldn't be excluded from the torso series either seeing as we are discussing that scenario in relation to JTR.

Yes, Dr Phillips was asked to look for similarities between Pinchin Street and MJK but his conclusion, after noting some similarities, was that a different person was responsible for both crimes. We also have to bear in mind that both Hebbert and Bond were present and viewed and made notes on the body of MJk and together made extensive studies and wrote and published academic papers on the four torso murders but did not mention any link to the murder of MJK. They did think that the torso murders were definitely by the same hand though.

If you want to talk similarities. look for the posts where I have described the injuries to Elizabeth Jackson in comparison to MJK and the striking similarity. But that was never mentioned by Hebbert and Bond either.

Hi Debra
Many times when a killer is caught it turns out their crimes are alot worse and they were responsible for more murders than originally thought. I beleive it possible (though not probable) that the JtR murders and the torso murders were by the same person. I would suggest that similarities of the bodies being left in open public places such as Pinchin street case and Whitehall may have fullfilled the killers desire to shock, taunt the police and public in the same way the ripper murders did and that as you suggested the similarities in the abdominal mutilations of EJ and possibly also Pinchin st could point to them being the work of the ripper.

Much has been made of the different MO between the series of crimes-that is that the torso murders were mainly dismemeberment and the murders occured in a different location than when the bodies were found. However, I have suggested that if the same killer did both series of crimes than perhaps the torso murders occured when the killer could have free reign to bring his victims back to his home but that perhaps the JtR murders he could not. The JtR murders occured mainly on weekends/holidays and also the first and last week of the month. So maybe during these times, is when people/person he lived with (wife, parents etc)were home and he had to kill outside. Thus the torso murders occurred when they were gone and he had free reign of his house. The difference in MO would then be explained by needing to dismemeber the bodies to remove from his house.

[Phil H]

I would suggest that similarities of the bodies being left in open public places such as Pinchin street case and Whitehall may have fullfilled the killers desire to shock, taunt the police and public in the same way the ripper murders did

IMHO the Whitehall torso cannot be said to have been left in a particulrly PUBLIC place - the partially built basement of a new building!!

On the other hand it must have required some effort to get it there and it showed a potential macabre sense of humour.

Has anyone ever looked into the possibility that the killer (or an accomplice) was a labourer working on the site? Otherwise, it is difficult to know how they might have been aware of the site's intended use or had easy access.

Maybe knowledge of the site's use indicates the torso killer, at least - was informed of current events. Not something I'd expect of a man like Kosminski, but maybe of someone akin to Tumblety or Druitt??

Phil H

[Errata]

Given the population of London at the time, minus those we know could not be Jack, we're left with about 3 million. Taking out those we think could not be Jack, we can get it down to maybe 150,000 if we are ruthless. So we have about a dozen or so credible named suspects, and a suspect pool of 150,000 to 3,000,000. Statistically speaking, it would be a miracle if we'd ever heard of him. Which isn't to say that the cops at the time might not have heard of him, but he was not considered a suspect. Concerned neighborhood watch type guy for instance. Or cop groupie at a pub.

[Phil Carter]

The inter-relationships of the murders (as I see them) at the moment could be:

Thames torso-killer (probably operating south of the River and with a place of his own - which Jack did not have) responsible for ALL the torsos and the Pichen St torso, perhaps placed as a "taunt" to Jack. (The Lechmere connection, on this analysis, would be a coincidence merely.)

"Jack" - killed Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes - perhaps McKenzie (when he was ill and in a weakened state).

Stride - Kidney for personal revenge.

Kelly - an intimate for personal reasons, but trying to do what he had read Jack had done. (Flemming? Barnett?)

Tabram probably killed by at least two men - maybe soldiers. Martha may have tried to con one of them and he called his mate.

Smith - said a gang attacked her, probably no intention of killing her. BUT, I wonder whether "Jack" witnessed the attack, fantasised about it and this started him on his own spree.

Coles - Sadler or another hand.

I reserve the possibility that Eddowes and Kelly may have been somehow embroiled in a Fenian-related crime.

Phil H

Hello Phil H,

A very interesting list indeed.

Of course, whilst not in much disagreement with you, like me, you'll get the "Oh, so there were at least 7 different killers running around unfettered, eh?..."

Sort of ruins the one mad killer, "Jack the Ripper" scenario.

For me, that's a good thing. For others, it isn't.

I'll go with..

Torso victims, as you state, if not in one case a dead body and then carved up...(possible?)

Nichols, Chapman...same hand. Possibly Isenschmidt. Possible even Lampard, who is of interest to me. John B has a talk coming up on him at the conference, btw. Outside chance of Lechmere, but I have my doubts there. Interesting reason you have for adding McKenzie though.

Stride, a slash and dash local. Possibly from the club itself.

Eddowes... now she is a pickle. Can't quite place her. Perhaps with M J Kelly, perhaps not. All depends on why John Kelly behaved why he did, and Wilkinson, for example, in their inquest statements, etc. I can see an Irish connection possible. It's thin though. The destruction of the face seems to have been an attempt to make her unrecognisable..see, MJK.

M J Kelly. Nothing to do with the Nichols, Chapman, Stride murderer. This one is a one off piece of OTT nastiness. A point was made here. To obliterate an identity. With a possible connection to Fenianism. Also possible connection with Eddowes. I do not think it was her real name either. I think it's an assumed name.

Tabram..soldier(s)? most likely. Some disagree of course as with all of these..

Smith..gang. But WHAT gang is another matter. This looks like a real "just for jolly"... and that blunt instrument is odd. Gangs walk around with sharp weapons, on the whole, not baseball bat shaped things. Too easy to be seen with, and get nicked....

Coles, McKenzie.. unsure if by the same hand or not. Looks like a copycat (in McKenzie's case). Sadler for Coles? Possible.


So that's 8 or nine killers for me spread out over that time frame.

Whichever way we look at the combinations and possibilities, one thing is more than probable. We have at least 4 different killers.. Torso Jack, C1-C5 Jack, Smith Jack and Coles/McKenzie/Tabram Jack.

And like it or not, none of those 4 killers were caught.

Take the combinations away, and the quantity goes up.

Does that make you wonder anything? It does me. The more killers there are, the improvement in actual figures of catching the perpetrator doesn't exist. (Unless we count Sadler who was held and dismissed, and Kidney's consideration thought of.)

The newspaper myth of Jack the Ripper, the all seeing genius of swift feet and deft movemment, harlot killer and all round super-murderer lived on a long long time. Still alive today too.

I really do wish some would see what you see. To you and I, the obvious!

But then it would spoil all the fun, eh?

Have a good day Phil H

best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

Hi Debra
Many times when a killer is caught it turns out their crimes are alot worse and they were responsible for more murders than originally thought. I beleive it possible (though not probable) that the JtR murders and the torso murders were by the same person. I would suggest that similarities of the bodies being left in open public places such as Pinchin street case and Whitehall may have fullfilled the killers desire to shock, taunt the police and public in the same way the ripper murders did and that as you suggested the similarities in the abdominal mutilations of EJ and possibly also Pinchin st could point to them being the work of the ripper.

Much has been made of the different MO between the series of crimes-that is that the torso murders were mainly dismemeberment and the murders occured in a different location than when the bodies were found. However, I have suggested that if the same killer did both series of crimes than perhaps the torso murders occured when the killer could have free reign to bring his victims back to his home but that perhaps the JtR murders he could not. The JtR murders occured mainly on weekends/holidays and also the first and last week of the month. So maybe during these times, is when people/person he lived with (wife, parents etc)were home and he had to kill outside. Thus the torso murders occurred when they were gone and he had free reign of his house. The difference in MO would then be explained by needing to dismemeber the bodies to remove from his house.

Hi Abby,
I would disagree about the vault at Whitehall being a public place, although I agree Pinchin Street was. The Whitehall torso was found in a damp dark dificult to access vault, as noted by men working at the site at the time. One lower leg was also found burried under a mound of earth at the same site. It was even mentioned that insider knowledge may have been required to find the vault as it was so tucked away. This seems to me like a victim very much hidden rather than put on display? Much is made of the fact that this was the building site of New Scotland Yard but if there was a message in leaving the torso there what was the message? If Bond and Hebbert are to be belived, then this murder came before the murder of Polly Nichols.

Regarding mutilations on the torso victims, Elizabeth Jackson had one of the most horrific mutilations inflicted on her, her unborn child removed from her womb after death.
This was possibly to aid dismemberment but it's not difficult to imagine a serial killer who removed organs from his victims, like I think Jack was, being curious about a gravid uterus, which would be the prominent feature when opening up Elizabeth's abdomen.

This is way off topic though.

[Phil H]

But errata that is not a sensible way of approaching the question - nor a practical one.

It reminds me of those humourous calculations I used to see years ago, that start off with the total population of the country, whittle it down by excluding the young, the old, etc etc, until it ends up, "so it's either you aor me, and it's certainly not me!!"

As the police recognised at the time, the most likely murderer would have been one from the neighbourhood, with a place to retreat to quickly, to clean up. On that basis they did a house-to-house inquiry which eliminated many - for specific and good reasons.

Leaving aside the always remote possibilities of doctors, toffs or royal conspiracies, Anderson's Swanson's and Macnaghten's "Kosminski" was on their lists and in their sights for good reason. We may not now understand those reasons, and the Kosminski we have investigated may not be the same man they had in mind (no forename was given).

I am certain the name of the man involved was in the records somewhere, but we may not now have enough material to find him, or those records may have disappeared.

Phil H

[Sally]

I think Paul did it - left the Pinchin Street Torso out as a sort of message to Cross - sort of 'Whatever suspicions you may have about me (and frankly, who wouldn't?) keep 'em to yourself, or your mother is next'.

Works for me.

[Phil H]

And like it or not, none of those 4 killers were caught.
Take the combinations away, and the quantity goes up.
Does that make you wonder anything? It does me. The more killers there are, the improvement in actual figures of catching the perpetrator doesn't exist.

I think there is a good reason for that.

Let's say a man (A) kills Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes. he comes under suspicion after the MJK killing. But he can give solid alibis for the last. because the authorities were looking for one killer for all they dismiss quickly any suspect who cannot have done all. So (A) walks or is dismissed.

That is why i find it interesting to look at different combinations of victims and say, OK (A) could not have killed (X) but he COULD have (Y) and (Z).

I suppose the other possibility is that "Jack" was several men, maybe acting in turn, standing watch (which could fit with a group like the Fenians). That might mislead witnesses, and provide and explanation as to slight differences in MO. After all, Smith was supposedly killed by three men, Tabram possibly by two or more. Could those cases, spontaneous perhaps, have given rise to a larger plan?

I DO NOT really propose such a solution, but it might be an alternative that would explain some things we find inexplicable.

Phil H

[Jon Guy]

I think Paul did it - left the Pinchin Street Torso out as a sort of message to Cross - sort of 'Whatever suspicions you may have about me (and frankly, who wouldn't?) keep 'em to yourself, or your mother is next'.

Works for me.

I was only just thinking the same thing, Sally.

In fact, if you re-arrange the letters of PINCHIN STREET TORSO, I came up with:

C-R-O-S-S
R-O-T
I-N
T-H-I-N
S-T-E-E-P

Definately some kind of warning.

[Phil Carter]

And like it or not, none of those 4 killers were caught.
Take the combinations away, and the quantity goes up.
Does that make you wonder anything? It does me. The more killers there are, the improvement in actual figures of catching the perpetrator doesn't exist.

I think there is a good reason for that.

Let's say a man (A) kills Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes. he comes under suspicion after the MJK killing. But he can give solid alibis for the last. because the authorities were looking for one killer for all they dismiss quickly any suspect who cannot have done all. So (A) walks or is dismissed.

That is why i find it interesting to look at different combinations of victims and say, OK (A) could not have killed (X) but he COULD have (Y) and (Z).

I suppose the other possibility is that "Jack" was several men, maybe acting in turn, standing watch (which could fit with a group like the Fenians). That might mislead witnesses, and provide and explanation as to slight differences in MO. After all, Smith was supposedly killed by three men, Tabram possibly by two or more. Could those cases, spontaneous perhaps, have given rise to a larger plan?

I DO NOT really propose such a solution, but it might be an alternative that would explain some things we find inexplicable.

Phil H

Hello Phil H,

Interesting and thought provoking post, again.

Thank you.

best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

No other body parts relating to the Pinchin Street torso were found and it wasn't very near the Thames. It isn't really very like the other torso killings.

Except the mode of dismemberment was described as identical in all four torso cases 1887-89, including Pinchin Street. Smooth cutting of the skin around the joints in the same direction to expose the joints and then the joints neatly disarticulated and finally sawn through with a fine tooth saw. Is the location of the find more important than a match in the mode of dismemberment?

[Phil H]

C-R-O-S-S R-O-T I-N T-H-I-N S-T-E-E-P

To many "s"'s I think.