Henry/ Harry Buckley

[richardnunweek]

According to Dew it was a youth that rushed into the police station, and he also interviewed the youth back at Millers court, when he had regained some composure , it appears that Mrs McCarthy and son were collecting rents that morning, could not make Kelly hear, and that's when Bowyer was sent , as it had been reported by some residents that Kelly appeared not to be around as was normal.
We know that Bowyer was not a well man the shock of seeing the body first, would have been overpowering, and I cannot imagine he being sent to the police station hotfoot, surely his son would have been more fleet of foot, and fits in with Dew's description.
Dew also recalled McCarthy arriving at the station.
It has been stated that McCarthy told the errand person [ whoever he was] not to talk to anyone about this en-route. so I would say he would have made provisions that no resident went anywhere near Room 13, until the police arrived. that to me is obvious.
Regards Richard.

[MrBarnett]

Does anyone know where Steve McCarthy was in 1891? He wasn’t at 27, Dorset Street when the census was taken. By then, Jack McCarthy was a man of some substance; I find it hard to believe that his son and heir attended a local board school, so perhaps he was at a boarding school somewhere. And perhaps that’s where he was in November, 1888. That seems more likely than that he was out collecting rents from prostitutes.

[Joshua Rogan]

So, another little odd thing. The Clerkenwell Court calendar gives his age as 36.

When Mary Cox was asked what she thought the age of the man was she said ‘six-and-thirty’. Which has always seemed a little odd to me, in that when guessing an age people tend to say ‘about 35’ or ‘between 35 - 40’. It also looks to be the correct age for Buckley.

It's worth noting that the Echo has Cox saying the man was "about thirty-seven", the Morning Advertiser says "He appeared to be between 35 and 36", the PIP "I should think the age of the man I saw with the deceased was about five or six and thirty.", the St James' Gazette "The man she saw with the deceased was apparently about thirty five years of age", the Star "about 36" and the Times "he appeared to be between 35 and 36 years of age". All very similar estimates, but not as exact as some accounts would make it seem.

[Joshua Rogan]

According to Dew it was a youth that rushed into the police station, and he also interviewed the youth back at Millers court, when he had regained some composure , it appears that Mrs McCarthy and son were collecting rents that morning, could not make Kelly hear, and that's when Bowyer was sent , as it had been reported by some residents that Kelly appeared not to be around as was normal.
We know that Bowyer was not a well man the shock of seeing the body first, would have been overpowering, and I cannot imagine he being sent to the police station hotfoot, surely his son would have been more fleet of foot, and fits in with Dew's description.
Dew also recalled McCarthy arriving at the station.
It has been stated that McCarthy told the errand person [ whoever he was] not to talk to anyone about this en-route. so I would say he would have made provisions that no resident went anywhere near Room 13, until the police arrived. that to me is obvious.
Regards Richard.

It's clear from their inquest testimony an press statements that both McCarthy and Bowyer went to the police station, whatever their state of health. I'm not sure why you would prefer Dew's 50-year-old recollections.
The room was locked, nobody was going to wander in there accidentally. Setting someone to guard the room would only draw attention to it. If I was told to guard a locked room for no apparent reason, I'd probably take a peek through the window...

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I did not mean literally guard the room. but certainly be local , so you could observe the traffic in and out of the court whilst awaiting police, as for Mrs McCarthy and son collecting rents, maybe it was more likely to produce results rather then a heavy handed type,
Regards Richard,

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi,
I did not mean literally guard the room. but certainly be local , so you could observe the traffic in and out of the court whilst awaiting police, as for Mrs McCarthy and son collecting rents, maybe it was more likely to produce results rather then a heavy handed type,
Regards Richard,

It still seems a little pointless to me, but fair enough.
Do you think the Mrs McCarthy referred to was John's wife, or mother?
Incidentally, the ELA says of Mrs Cox that she "did not sleep a wink during the whole night, and was still awake when the man called for the rent."
Not conclusive, but more indicative of Bowyer I'd have thought than a 14 year old youth.

[MrBarnett]

I’d be very interested in the source for it being ‘Mrs McCarthy’ and her son who called for Kelly’s rent.

[Joshua Rogan]

I’d be very interested in the source for it being ‘Mrs McCarthy’ and her son who called for Kelly’s rent.

Probably this from the Daily News 10 Nov;

"Just before eleven Mrs. M'Carthy with her son went to pay her customary visit for the purpose of collecting the day's rent. Young McCarthy appears to have first sent a man named Bower (sic) to the house"

I have a smidgen of a suspicion that perhaps Dew refreshed his memory using reports like this one, hence him recalling a youth running to the station.

[MrBarnett]

Probably this from the Daily News 10 Nov;

"Just before eleven Mrs. M'Carthy with her son went to pay her customary visit for the purpose of collecting the day's rent. Young McCarthy appears to have first sent a man named Bower (sic) to the house"

I have a smidgen of a suspicion that perhaps Dew refreshed his memory using reports like this one, hence him recalling a youth running to the station.

There’s a version of that where the son enters the ‘hall’ of Kelly’s room, discovers her body on the floor and says something along the lines of, ‘Oh, mother, don’t look’.

Personally, I’m sceptical about the involvement of Mrs McCarthy or her son.

Fred Wensley certainly kept a scrapbook of news reports of the cases he’d been involved in. I agree with you that Dew probably refreshed (possibly created) his memories from news reports.

[MrBarnett]

Here’s another version of the Manning incident:

[MrBarnett]

I can’t say I favour Buckley as the Ripper on the basis of the limited evidence provided. However, I find Billy Maher, one of the next generation of Dorset Street ‘shopmen’, of considerable interest in the Austin case. But that’s another story...

To return to Buckley - using FMP, I could only find three adult Patrick Buckleys in London on the 1891 census:

An Islington blacksmith,

A Deptford steam engine maker/fitter,

A Fulham Gas Stoker.

Geographically, the Islington man is obviously a better fit for a Euston Road pick-up, but the occupation and address of the Fulham candidate is intriguing to say the least. A gas stoker living in Stanley Road: the same occupation and street as Adrianus Morgenstern in 1877.

I think it’s worth a trip to the London Hospital archives to establish the victim’s occupation and home address. I can’t do it for a week or two, but if no one else gets to it first, I’ll pop along there the week after next.

Incidentally, by 1901, PM the gas stoker was living in Kensington.

[Joshua Rogan]

It wouldn't be too surprising to find two gas stokers living in Stanley Road, there was a massive gas works right behind it.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.9107860907006&lat=51.4774&lon=-0.1873&layers=163&b=1

[MrBarnett]

It wouldn't be too surprising to find two gas stokers living in Stanley Road, there was a massive gas works right behind it.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoo...layers=163&b=1

Yes, I know, Joshua.

So the likelihood is that Manning and Morgenstern worked at the same place, though, as I say, not necessarily at the same time.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Coincidence again. Henry Buckley in bed at 39, Dorset street, [ which appears to have been a lodging house, with one adjoined ..This was apparently also used as a coal dealers and owned by McCarthy.] Remember the letter sent to the police ''I live at 39 , Cutler street''. 39 rears its head again in this case,, And did not McCarthy state that initially Kelly came to live with a Coal porter.Did Buckley once live in Kelly's room? Did he porter coal at one time.?
Regards Richard.

[Abby Normal]

I can’t say I favour Buckley as the Ripper on the basis of the limited evidence provided. However, I find Billy Maher, one of the next generation of Dorset Street ‘shopmen’, of considerable interest in the Austin case. But that’s another story...

To return to Buckley - using FMP, I could only find three adult Patrick Buckleys in London on the 1891 census:

An Islington blacksmith,

A Deptford steam engine maker/fitter,

A Fulham Gas Stoker.

Geographically, the Islington man is obviously a better fit for a Euston Road pick-up, but the occupation and address of the Fulham candidate is intriguing to say the least. A gas stoker living in Stanley Road: the same occupation and street as Adrianus Morgenstern in 1877.

I think it’s worth a trip to the London Hospital archives to establish the victim’s occupation and home address. I can’t do it for a week or two, but if no one else gets to it first, I’ll pop along there the week after next.

Incidentally, by 1901, PM the gas stoker was living in Kensington.

HI Gary

"I could only find three adult Patrick Buckleys in London on the 1891 census:"

I assume you meant Harry Buckley?