Why not McCarthy ?

[lynn cates]

bought

Hello Chava. Thanks

"If you were going to copycat the Ripper, all you'd need to do would be to cut the throat and make a few aimless passes with a knife in the abdominal area. The cops would have bought it I'm sure."

Indeed. And not a few modern investigators.

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

There may have been something more personal. If he did kill MJK--and I think it's a remote possibility but a possibility non-the-less--I doubt it would just be for the back-rent.

Well of course - a possibility. If that were so, and it was a crime of passion, say - then he probably would've got away with with it. He was a slum landlord - who'd have snitched on him? Powerful man - people think twice before making enemies of such men.

[Debra A]

Bowyer at the water tap

Hi all.
Abby asked me if I could post the Echo article from Nov. 14th mentioning Bowyer at the water tap and in the shop at 3am the morning of the murder.

This is the relevant section of the article:

[Wickerman]

Thankyou for that Deb's.

My snippet began with the Bowyer bit, the few lines which preceed it are missing.

I wasn't aware of Cox's description being now 'uncertain' "moustache not carroty, but dark".
I wonder where/when that belief surfaced.

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

Thankyou for that Deb's.

My snippet began with the Bowyer bit, the few lines which preceed it are missing.

I wasn't aware of Cox's description being now 'uncertain' "moustache not carroty, but dark".
I wonder where/when that belief surfaced.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon.

As the first part of the same article deals with George Hutchinson coming forward with his description of A man and his dark moustache, it could be that is why the Echo claim the 'carroty' moustache description no longer applies?

However, the article also mentions that Bowyer has now given Abberline a description of a man he saw in the Court on Friday morning-it's tempting to think Bowyers description might also have described a man with a dark moustache, isn't it? We also have the description of a young, respectable looking, well dressed man with a dark moustache seen with MJK at around 11pm outside the Britannia -a description seemingly given to a press association representative by John McCarthy.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby



I agree. I'm also not sure what he would've had to gain by killing Kelly? It seems a little extreme to do it for the sake of a bit of back rent. He was a 'Big Man' in the locale - he had much more to lose than gain.



Do you know where that was from Abby? It sounds interesting. Of course, just because it was printed in a paper doesn't make it true - then again it was Bowyer who found Kelly.

Hi Sally, Chava
Debra pasted it a few posts up.

[Abby Normal]

Hi all.
Abby asked me if I could post the Echo article from Nov. 14th mentioning Bowyer at the water tap and in the shop at 3am the morning of the murder.

This is the relevant section of the article:

[ATTACH]15106[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]15107[/ATTACH]

Thanks Debra!
I find that the direct quote from Bowyer saying he was there, as opposed to the paper just saying he was there, lends to its credence.

Also, very interesting that your research shows that he may have died in
1889. Do you know what month?

[Abby Normal]

There may have been something more personal. If he did kill MJK--and I think it's a remote possibility but a possibility non-the-less--I doubt it would just be for the back-rent.

Nah-he could have just received sexual favors for that.

[Abby Normal]

Hi all.
Abby asked me if I could post the Echo article from Nov. 14th mentioning Bowyer at the water tap and in the shop at 3am the morning of the murder.

This is the relevant section of the article:

[ATTACH]15106[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]15107[/ATTACH]

I also note it says he travelled alot. Wonder when he came into town... and when he left......Hmmmm

[Debra A]

Also, very interesting that your research shows that he may have died in
1889. Do you know what month?

Hi Abby.

The 1889 death date is based on the records of an army Chelsea Pensioner born 1847 in Clapham, looked at by both me and Chris Philips (the details appear on another thread somewhere) as a possible for Bowyer. This particular Thomas Bowyer served in India (as Bowyer reportedly did), and was pensioned out on ill health in 1886. He suffered from Bright's disease.

No trace can be found of this Thomas Bowyer after Nov. 1886, when he was discharged, but there is a death in Clapham of a man of the same name and age being buried April 27 1889 at the South Metropolitan Cemetery. His last known address being 4 The Polygon Clapham. This isn't a definite identification, however.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby.

The 1889 death date is based on the records of an army Chelsea Pensioner born 1847 in Clapham, looked at by both me and Chris Philips (the details appear on another thread somewhere) as a possible for Bowyer. This particular Thomas Bowyer served in India (as Bowyer reportedly did), and was pensioned out on ill health in 1886. He suffered from Bright's disease.

No trace can be found of this Thomas Bowyer after Nov. 1886, when he was discharged, but there is a death in Clapham of a man of the same name and age being buried April 27 1889 at the South Metropolitan Cemetery. His last known address being 4 The Polygon Clapham. This isn't a definite identification, however.

Thanks Debra
I would say that this our "Indian Harry". If Bowyer was the ripper then this would explain the end of the murders (excluding mckenzie and Coles of course). Shortly after MKs murder he takes a turn for the worse from his disease and moves back to his hometown where he dies shortly thereafter.

[Chava]

I have to say it's a good idea, and someone I never looked at before. I think the murders ended with MJK so it would make sense to me that the Ripper died shortly thereafter. Also it might explain the 'personal' aspect of the last murder. Bowyer would have known MJK. There could be a ton of reasons why he might have hated her enough to kill her in the way he had killed other women. She may even have suspected him of the murders and told him so. Because whoever the Ripper was, I don't think MJK was his ideal victim. His 'type' seemed so specific apart from her.

Did he live in Millers Court? Why was he around at 3.00 am getting water from the pump? Why did he say he was? And why does he not feature much in the police files, given that by his own account he was at the pump in Millers Court--which if I remember was basically outside MJK's window--at the putative time of the murder? Also, he was in the employ of McCarthy and may well have known about the missing key/getting in through the window. He definitely knew about the window as he drew the coat back to look into the room.

Thomas Bowyer has become a Person of Interest to me.

[Phil H]

Because whoever the Ripper was, I don't think MJK was his ideal victim. His 'type' seemed so specific apart from her

On that basis, it is equally possible to assume that MJK was NOT a victim of "Jack" at all.

Given the number of men we know of in MJK's life - Barnett, Flemming, Morgan Stone (?) we don't have to find others and guess at reasons for them wanting to kill her in a very personal way.

Phil

[Chava]

Because whoever the Ripper was, I don't think MJK was his ideal victim. His 'type' seemed so specific apart from her

On that basis, it is equally possible to assume that MJK was NOT a victim of "Jack" at all.

Given the number of men we know of in MJK's life - Barnett, Flemming, Morgan Stone (?) we don't have to find others and guess at reasons for them wanting to kill her in a very personal way.

Phil

Well, yes. But that's always going to be the case with MJK. I don't think we can ever know for sure that she was a Ripper victim. I've been on the fence about that for years. Yes, she was killed in the same way but no, the Ripper did not take hearts, he took uteri. Yes, she was a prostitute, but no, she was nowhere near resembling the other four in circumstances, age or in appearance. (And they resemble each other closely in everything.) I could make a pretty good case for either side of this argument.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra
I would say that this our "Indian Harry". If Bowyer was the ripper then this would explain the end of the murders (excluding mckenzie and Coles of course). Shortly after MKs murder he takes a turn for the worse from his disease and moves back to his hometown where he dies shortly thereafter.

It's a familiar argument - no different to a proposal that Timothy Donovan, Henry Hanslope, GH etc. was the Ripper,is it?.an unknown local... named.