Why not McCarthy ?

[Sally]

Hello Sally. Would you perhaps have "MJK"'s bio handy? It could save a good bit of time.

Cheers.
LC

If only I did, Lynn.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Its amazing how one can invent a suspect out of thin air.
A lot of Casebook believe Tabram, and Stride ,were the work of a different assailant, so we have a perfect candidate in Louis Diemschutz.
A] He discovered the body of Stride.
B] He had transport
C] He stabled his horse in George yard.
Motive?.. we could invent one,[ ha ha] maybe she was in his way when he entered the yard, so he jumped down, and lost it, he may simply had a nasty temper, rather like the frenzied attack on Tabram would imply.
I am not losing it ...really.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

Hey Richard - you've discovered a new suspect!

I think because there are so many ambiguities in the case, and so much unexplained, there is a lot of room for speculation. And I guess at the end of the day, that's what keeps us all interested ultimately - not that we can speculate at will, I mean - but that one avenue of enquiry might one day yield some real answers.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sally,
Absolutely agree, in the last few weeks[ or years even] we have been thrashing about for plausible suspects, away from the Druitt's, the kosminsky's ,Cutbush, Tumblety, Barnett, Maybrick etc, and have introduced a new brigade, which includes Hutchinson . Le-grand, Fleming, and more recently..Cross, McCarthy, and now Diemschutz[ yours truly].
The truth of the matter is the killings ceased after the death of MJK, giving an impression that she was possibly the cause of it, a speculation that was around a hundred years ago.
That being the case taking everything into account the best suspect has to be Joseph Fleming, or a unknown from her past, that had a real grudge against her, and women of her kind, and the murders ceased when she was dead.
I believe also that we should not discount Barnett, or even his brother Danny.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

Hi Sally,
Absolutely agree, in the last few weeks[ or years even] we have been thrashing about for plausible suspects, away from the Druitt's, the kosminsky's ,Cutbush, Tumblety, Barnett, Maybrick etc, and have introduced a new brigade, which includes Hutchinson . Le-grand, Fleming, and more recently..Cross, McCarthy, and now Diemschutz[ yours truly].
The truth of the matter is the killings ceased after the death of MJK, giving an impression that she was possibly the cause of it, a speculation that was around a hundred years ago.
That being the case taking everything into account the best suspect has to be Joseph Fleming, or a unknown from her past, that had a real grudge against her, and women of her kind, and the murders ceased when she was dead.
I believe also that we should not discount Barnett, or even his brother Danny.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard - you make some good points. I agree that Fleming must remain on our radar (regardless of silly height arguments) conidering his history with Kelly, his continued association with Kelly, his whereabouts at the time of her death, and his later history. He's a strong contender for Kelly's death in my view and if one considers that Kelly's murderer was also responsible for the others attributed to the Whitechapel Fiend; then by extension Fleming has to be in the frame for the Ripper's mantle. Insofar as I entertain the prospect of a particular suspect, he's not bad . Not the only possibility by far, but not bad.

As for the Barnetts - I'd like to know where Joseph went for that 10 years. I have some ideas about that, but that's all; such evidence as there is, is too ephemeral to date. Perhaps we'll never know. I don't consider him to be a likely suspect; and hadn't really thought about Danny; although like his brother, he appears to have led a respectable and mundane life up to his death - certainly there are no indications that either of them were anything but normal from the records.

But I think I digress. I think Gene's thread has been well and truly diverted. Sorry Gene.

[Gene Lewis]

That's OK Sally... I'm holding tight my silk thread: let's go back now to our Mr McCarthy and his damp grey silhouette...

[Wade Aznable]

As Don Souden wrote in an essay for Ripper Notes eons ago, McCarthy chopped open the door to his own property when the police asked him to open it in order to not be the only man with a key to the room. Don postulates that McCarthy may, in fact, have entered the room to take things out prior to sending Bowyer to fetch the police.

Hi Tom,
I've read Don Souden's article recently (I bought myself some old issues of RN on a good offer on Amazon, and that particular issue was in the stock): you mean his proposition that McCarthy was pimping Kelly and since she loved to drink he made sure to have his slice of her earnings by giving her a locked box to put coins in (sorry, I don't know the english word for that: just like Gene I'm from mainland Europe!), and that this box was what he had recovered, thus explaining the minutes it took to him to reach the police station and the following discrepancies in his inquest deposition? After all, "pimping" (or, better, receving earnings from other people prostituting themselves) was a serious crime, and sure as hell MC didn't want to be connected to such activity.
Quite a fascinating idea, even if a little bit too complicated (if we have to follow Occam, and I usually do, the proposition that MC let MJK stay in arrears without kicking her out because of his compassionate wife posted before by another poster rings easier... and we all know how convincing a wife can be ).

Best regards,
W

[Sally]

Yep..

..the proposition that MC let MJK stay in arrears without kicking her out because of his compassionate wife..

Or because:

The rent had been regular and on time in the past - so might be again. Many people fall on hard times, often temporary.

Kelly was an attractive prostitute who might be expected to make up the arrears over time. Her earning potential was probably better than for many prostitutes on the street.

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

All quite reasonable explanations for the rent arrears.

Of course, there could be a more sinister explanation....

[Rubyretro]

...and also that once she was gone, then there would certainly be no hope of recovering the money owed.

....she had been living with one bloke (Joe), who had paid the rent, but had fallen on hard times. He was still around, and might possibly move back in (paying off the arrears) if he got a new job.

....she had to eat, and most probably bought all her food from his shop. Maybe she had aready paid off a credit note there, showing willingness.

...she was attractive and popular and maybe a new regular boyfriend would either move in or pay off the arrears...

....they were related in some way ( McCarthy's family seem to have been 'theatrical', and I think that Mary said that she had a relative on the stage. Maybe there was a link ?).

There are lots of possible reasons....

[miss marple]

I cant think of a motive for McCarthy to slice up MK. He was a very successful business, and also upstanding member of community, while certainly involved in some dodgy stuff such as illegal prize fighting, but a serial killer why?

If for some unknown reason he wanted MK dead, I am sure there would have been easier ways to dispose of her than a sliced up body in his backyard. That is so bad for business and the last thing I can imagine McCarthy wanting at any time is police attention.
At the time of Kelly's death his son John was 14, and not involved in music hall. later on he changed his name to Steve,got involved in show biz and married the great star, Marie Kendall in 1895.
Her mates seemed to big her up after she died, she was an artist of no considerable degree, she was well educated, relative on the stage etc
There is no evidence for any of that.
She sang a bit and appeared to have been a professional prostitute from an early age, apart from when she lived off Joe.
She seemed to be an alcoholic who became noisy and angry when drunk, but quiet when not, according to more than one witness, but their is a tendency to downplay the negatives due to her horrible death, even from Joe.
McCarthy obviously did'nt need the money from her rent and probably realised with Joe gone she would earn it back. She was young and attractive and rent arrears were an occupational hazard with the extreme poor.

Miss Marple

[Gene Lewis]

Is it necessary wondering "why" a serial killer is a serial killer ? Is the motive a key to Jack's identity and able to explain the reasons of acting the way he did ? I'm not sure.

[miss marple]

Gene, McCarthy's life is pretty well documented, he was well known in the area,and there is nothing to suggest that he had sociopath tendencies or any need to chop up women.
Lechmere led a blameless life but he is still being fingered as a suspect.
McCarthy was an man of property who had some standing in his community, with various business and money making schemes,some like the boxing, not legal , but far too shrewd a man to kill girls in his property.
He was very successful in his business and personal life. There is nothing about him that suggests the personality of a serial killer.

Serial killers are not' normal ' they are either psychopaths or socialpaths and have tendencies which develop at quite an early age.
Miss Marple

[Fisherman]

Miss Marple:

"Lechmere led a blameless life but he is still being fingered as a suspect."

If giving an alias instead of your right name to the police in connection with an inquest, and if lying a PC straight in the face constitutes blamelessness, then you are correct, Miss Marple - as regards these details. When it comes to the rest of his life, I have far less knowledge than you, and so I cannot tell how blameslessly he lived. I have to settle for acknowledging that I just don΄t know.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

I just don΄t know.

Great! Glad that's settled.

Anyway - McCarthy.... (to whom this thread is devoted..)

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Right back to McCarthy, what's the betting, that although he didn't kill anyone, there is a good chance that he would have known the perpetrator without knowing it, especially if the killer lived in the same street..note my thread ''How strange is this''.
Regards Richard.