Window of Time for Nichols murder

[JeffHamm]

Cobbett's Court (Place) was the next turning after 29 Hanbury St. The green spot for Broad St needs to move over slightly. It's the second long dark rectangle next to Liverpool Street Station. The two stations were literally side by side.

As for timings there are some excellent threads here from people who have walked and timed it.

Thanks again. Yes, the green circle is a park, but I had located a few variations of Broad street just east of it, so pleased that turns out to be where I was trying to get to.


- Jeff

[Elamarna]

Just some pointers Jeff

For maps I recommend

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.66779497189687&lat=51.5154&lon=-0.0720&layers=163&b=1

It has a very handy tool for measuring distances, and although it is from the mid 90s it is very accurate.

Dusty is right to say there are several threads with all the timings

There is one I did at

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/10587-bucks-row-project

And a 2nd by David Osram

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/8895-buck-s-row-timings

Hope those are of use


Steve

[drstrange169]

Cobbett's Court (Place) was the next turning after 29 Hanbury St. The green spot for Broad St needs to move over slightly. It's the second long dark rectangle next to Liverpool Street Station. The two stations were literally side by side.

As for timings there are some excellent threads here from people who have walked and timed it.

[JeffHamm]

Sorry to be a bother Jeff, but now you have Robert Paul in the wrong spot. Foster Street is along your route for Lechmere just before he reaches Brady Street. (Brady Street is the quick jog left then right onto Bucks Row. Where you have a short blue line at the corner of Bucks Row)

Yes, isn't it the 2nd street west of Brady street? Could be the map I have isn't showing all the streets maybe? Would you choose the first one (one street west of where I've put him) as the better option?

And it's not a bother, I would rather get it right than be right, if that makes sense.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Matching up the Goads map to the OS Map, the black rectangle is number 30, Foster Street. Robert Pauls stated residence.

Ah, even better! So south of where I've put the green estimated dot and mid-way in the first block not the 2nd. Excellent.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Thanks! That's much appreciated

Yes, you're right. I don't have a good Victorian map, and found the above online but it wasn't searchable. I did a Google search to find the modern 22 Doveton St for Cross/Lechmere, and then had to try and work out where on the old map it was. Got it within spitting distance, but recomparing the two I see that you've got it. I've placed it slightly above and right of the previous S as my best estimate of lining the two up (accepting streets that are dead ends now might not have been then, and numbering changes, makes my guesstimates unconfirmed, and I present them only as such here). But, I think for present purposes it's functional.

Trying to locate Cross/Lechmere's place of work on Broad Street. The only Broad Streets I can find via a modern Google is just to the east of the green circle I've filled in on the west side of the map below (Finsbury Circus Gardens), and there's a "New Broad Street", "Old Broad Street", and "Broad Street Ave" to choose from, but they're all in that general vicinity. I'm guessing Old Broad Street is what was Broad Street in 1888, and it runs north/south, 2nd street east of Finsbury Circus Gardens. That's looking a pretty fair distance for him to cover and get there by 4:00, but again, I could be way off base for all sorts of reasons.

I believe Paul was heading to Cobbett's Court, which I understand runs North/South and intersects with Hanbury Street somewhere west of #29 (Chapman's murder location), but I'm not sure which it is.

Anyway, with Cross a bit further away than I had him originally placed, the 4 minutes tops to get to Mizen looks right. And eye-balling it suggests he needs about 15 ish minutes to get around where I think Broad Street might be. That would suggest that Cross and Paul would have to meet with, and finishing talking with, PC Mizen no later than 3:45, though earlier would get him to work on time. Later, certainly to any large degree, means he would have been late, and probably out of work for the day.

- Jeff

Sorry to be a bother Jeff, but now you have Robert Paul in the wrong spot. Foster Street is along your route for Lechmere just before he reaches Brady Street. (Brady Street is the quick jog left then right onto Bucks Row. Where you have a short blue line at the corner of Bucks Row)

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

I'm not sure where you've got Lechmere's home, it should be where the last "s" in Cross is on your map.

Thanks! That's much appreciated

Yes, you're right. I don't have a good Victorian map, and found the above online but it wasn't searchable. I did a Google search to find the modern 22 Doveton St for Cross/Lechmere, and then had to try and work out where on the old map it was. Got it within spitting distance, but recomparing the two I see that you've got it. I've placed it slightly above and right of the previous S as my best estimate of lining the two up (accepting streets that are dead ends now might not have been then, and numbering changes, makes my guesstimates unconfirmed, and I present them only as such here). But, I think for present purposes it's functional.

Trying to locate Cross/Lechmere's place of work on Broad Street. The only Broad Streets I can find via a modern Google is just to the east of the green circle I've filled in on the west side of the map below (Finsbury Circus Gardens), and there's a "New Broad Street", "Old Broad Street", and "Broad Street Ave" to choose from, but they're all in that general vicinity. I'm guessing Old Broad Street is what was Broad Street in 1888, and it runs north/south, 2nd street east of Finsbury Circus Gardens. That's looking a pretty fair distance for him to cover and get there by 4:00, but again, I could be way off base for all sorts of reasons.

I believe Paul was heading to Cobbett's Court, which I understand runs North/South and intersects with Hanbury Street somewhere west of #29 (Chapman's murder location), but I'm not sure which it is.

Anyway, with Cross a bit further away than I had him originally placed, the 4 minutes tops to get to Mizen looks right. And eye-balling it suggests he needs about 15 ish minutes to get around where I think Broad Street might be. That would suggest that Cross and Paul would have to meet with, and finishing talking with, PC Mizen no later than 3:45, though earlier would get him to work on time. Later, certainly to any large degree, means he would have been late, and probably out of work for the day.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Matching up the Goads map to the OS Map, the black rectangle is number 30, Foster Street. Robert Pauls stated residence.

[jerryd]

Brilliant! I'm not sure where on the street exactly 30 Forster would be, so I've put him in the middle as an estimated starting point. Much obliged.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Red= Foster Street
Green= Bucks Row

Brilliant! I'm not sure where on the street exactly 30 Forster would be, so I've put him in the middle as an estimated starting point. Much obliged.

- Jeff

[drstrange169]

Hello Jeff,

I'm not sure where you've got Lechmere's home, it should be where the last "s" in Cross is on your map.

[jerryd]

Hi Jeff,

Red= Foster Street
Green= Bucks Row

[JeffHamm]

Hi,

I'm having a hard time finding Paul's address (30 Foster Street) as I can't seem to locate a Foster Street in the area? I've found Cross/Lechmere's address, and have marked that in blue and a probable route from his home to the location of Nichol's body. I've marked the other locations of the C5 for reference points as well.

What I would like to try and put together are a few markers, roughly indicating important locations (PC Mizen is reported somewhere around the end of Hanbury Street, which is fairly close, and so the 4 minutes (which Paul gives as an upper limit) seems about right given the distance Lechmere/Cross travelled in what people have been arguing should take about 7ish. I've put Mizen at the east end of Hanbury Street, as the exact location seems unclear, but perhaps there is a more precise location generally agreed upon? The distance (in pixels as the map doesn't have a scale bar) is about 100 pixels (99.4) from Cross to Nichols, and about 70 (69.4) from Nichols to the ? where I've placed Mizen. 4/7 is 0.57, while 70/100 is 0.7. Not a huge discrepancy, and if Cross/Lechmere and Paul both walk a bit faster (as they are now both delayed trying to get to work, and looking for a police officer), can be easily accounted for. Even if Mizen is thought to be a bit further along it's a big problem, particularly if the 7 minutes for Cross/Lechmere is longer than it would take him to traverse that distance and it only took him 6, for example. Everything is well withing error tolerances I think. Regardless, I'm trying to get a better handle on the movements of various people, and the locations they went to. (i.e. where was the ambulance obtained from? Where was Dr. Llewellyn's house? Where was PC Neil's beat, PC Thain? and so forth.

I'm sure someone who's done a more thorough research on this has probably done something similar already, but I can't find anything here on the site, and seeing the space and locations laid out, with time lines and reported locations, would be a big help I think.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

And, if JtR has strangled the victims first, as is generally believed, he's already targeted the throat and is right there when he places them on the ground as all the evidence points to their throats being cut while prone, so if he's strangled them to the ground, then he's right beside the throat when he lets go and gets his knife out. If he's going to cut the throat, it seems that's the opportune time to do it.

- Jeff

Makes sense to me Jeff. Abdomen first just doesn’t add up.

[JeffHamm]

Cheers Frank

Ive never gone for the idea of abdominal mutilations first. Makes little sense to me. Surely thoat cutting achieves the priority most efficiently- silence then death?

And, if JtR has strangled the victims first, as is generally believed, he's already targeted the throat and is right there when he places them on the ground as all the evidence points to their throats being cut while prone, so if he's strangled them to the ground, then he's right beside the throat when he lets go and gets his knife out. If he's going to cut the throat, it seems that's the opportune time to do it.

- Jeff