Window of Time for Nichols murder

[jerryd]

Hi Jeff,

Red= Foster Street
Green= Bucks Row

[drstrange169]

Hello Jeff,

I'm not sure where you've got Lechmere's home, it should be where the last "s" in Cross is on your map.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Red= Foster Street
Green= Bucks Row

Brilliant! I'm not sure where on the street exactly 30 Forster would be, so I've put him in the middle as an estimated starting point. Much obliged.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Brilliant! I'm not sure where on the street exactly 30 Forster would be, so I've put him in the middle as an estimated starting point. Much obliged.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Matching up the Goads map to the OS Map, the black rectangle is number 30, Foster Street. Robert Pauls stated residence.

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

I'm not sure where you've got Lechmere's home, it should be where the last "s" in Cross is on your map.

Thanks! That's much appreciated

Yes, you're right. I don't have a good Victorian map, and found the above online but it wasn't searchable. I did a Google search to find the modern 22 Doveton St for Cross/Lechmere, and then had to try and work out where on the old map it was. Got it within spitting distance, but recomparing the two I see that you've got it. I've placed it slightly above and right of the previous S as my best estimate of lining the two up (accepting streets that are dead ends now might not have been then, and numbering changes, makes my guesstimates unconfirmed, and I present them only as such here). But, I think for present purposes it's functional.

Trying to locate Cross/Lechmere's place of work on Broad Street. The only Broad Streets I can find via a modern Google is just to the east of the green circle I've filled in on the west side of the map below (Finsbury Circus Gardens), and there's a "New Broad Street", "Old Broad Street", and "Broad Street Ave" to choose from, but they're all in that general vicinity. I'm guessing Old Broad Street is what was Broad Street in 1888, and it runs north/south, 2nd street east of Finsbury Circus Gardens. That's looking a pretty fair distance for him to cover and get there by 4:00, but again, I could be way off base for all sorts of reasons.

I believe Paul was heading to Cobbett's Court, which I understand runs North/South and intersects with Hanbury Street somewhere west of #29 (Chapman's murder location), but I'm not sure which it is.

Anyway, with Cross a bit further away than I had him originally placed, the 4 minutes tops to get to Mizen looks right. And eye-balling it suggests he needs about 15 ish minutes to get around where I think Broad Street might be. That would suggest that Cross and Paul would have to meet with, and finishing talking with, PC Mizen no later than 3:45, though earlier would get him to work on time. Later, certainly to any large degree, means he would have been late, and probably out of work for the day.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Thanks! That's much appreciated

Yes, you're right. I don't have a good Victorian map, and found the above online but it wasn't searchable. I did a Google search to find the modern 22 Doveton St for Cross/Lechmere, and then had to try and work out where on the old map it was. Got it within spitting distance, but recomparing the two I see that you've got it. I've placed it slightly above and right of the previous S as my best estimate of lining the two up (accepting streets that are dead ends now might not have been then, and numbering changes, makes my guesstimates unconfirmed, and I present them only as such here). But, I think for present purposes it's functional.

Trying to locate Cross/Lechmere's place of work on Broad Street. The only Broad Streets I can find via a modern Google is just to the east of the green circle I've filled in on the west side of the map below (Finsbury Circus Gardens), and there's a "New Broad Street", "Old Broad Street", and "Broad Street Ave" to choose from, but they're all in that general vicinity. I'm guessing Old Broad Street is what was Broad Street in 1888, and it runs north/south, 2nd street east of Finsbury Circus Gardens. That's looking a pretty fair distance for him to cover and get there by 4:00, but again, I could be way off base for all sorts of reasons.

I believe Paul was heading to Cobbett's Court, which I understand runs North/South and intersects with Hanbury Street somewhere west of #29 (Chapman's murder location), but I'm not sure which it is.

Anyway, with Cross a bit further away than I had him originally placed, the 4 minutes tops to get to Mizen looks right. And eye-balling it suggests he needs about 15 ish minutes to get around where I think Broad Street might be. That would suggest that Cross and Paul would have to meet with, and finishing talking with, PC Mizen no later than 3:45, though earlier would get him to work on time. Later, certainly to any large degree, means he would have been late, and probably out of work for the day.

- Jeff

Sorry to be a bother Jeff, but now you have Robert Paul in the wrong spot. Foster Street is along your route for Lechmere just before he reaches Brady Street. (Brady Street is the quick jog left then right onto Bucks Row. Where you have a short blue line at the corner of Bucks Row)

[JeffHamm]

Matching up the Goads map to the OS Map, the black rectangle is number 30, Foster Street. Robert Pauls stated residence.

Ah, even better! So south of where I've put the green estimated dot and mid-way in the first block not the 2nd. Excellent.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Sorry to be a bother Jeff, but now you have Robert Paul in the wrong spot. Foster Street is along your route for Lechmere just before he reaches Brady Street. (Brady Street is the quick jog left then right onto Bucks Row. Where you have a short blue line at the corner of Bucks Row)

Yes, isn't it the 2nd street west of Brady street? Could be the map I have isn't showing all the streets maybe? Would you choose the first one (one street west of where I've put him) as the better option?

And it's not a bother, I would rather get it right than be right, if that makes sense.

- Jeff

[drstrange169]

Cobbett's Court (Place) was the next turning after 29 Hanbury St. The green spot for Broad St needs to move over slightly. It's the second long dark rectangle next to Liverpool Street Station. The two stations were literally side by side.

As for timings there are some excellent threads here from people who have walked and timed it.

[Elamarna]

Just some pointers Jeff

For maps I recommend

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.66779497189687&lat=51.5154&lon=-0.0720&layers=163&b=1

It has a very handy tool for measuring distances, and although it is from the mid 90s it is very accurate.

Dusty is right to say there are several threads with all the timings

There is one I did at

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/10587-bucks-row-project

And a 2nd by David Osram

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/8895-buck-s-row-timings

Hope those are of use


Steve

[JeffHamm]

Cobbett's Court (Place) was the next turning after 29 Hanbury St. The green spot for Broad St needs to move over slightly. It's the second long dark rectangle next to Liverpool Street Station. The two stations were literally side by side.

As for timings there are some excellent threads here from people who have walked and timed it.

Thanks again. Yes, the green circle is a park, but I had located a few variations of Broad street just east of it, so pleased that turns out to be where I was trying to get to.


- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Just some pointers Jeff

For maps I recommend

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoo...layers=163&b=1

It has a very handy tool for measuring distances, and although it is from the mid 90s it is very accurate.

Dusty is right to say there are several threads with all the timings

There is one I did at
https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ks-row-project

And a 2nd by David Osram

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-s-row-timings


Hope those are of use


Steve

Fantastic! That's a great find. The map I put above is from that site, but a different overlay or view, but the one you've got is much better for street names and has better detail (same as jerryd used, so glad to have access to that now as that gives me much more confidence in locating things properly).

Will go through the threads you've pointed me too as well, as space and time should correspond somewhat.

Much appreciated. And excitement ensues.

- Jeff

[Elamarna]

My pleasure to have helped


Steve

[Patrick S]

>>If Paul nevertheless came close to the neck, it would be hard for Lechmere to say "No! Donīt touch the neck!", would it not?<<


In control means not letting that situation arise.

An excellent point. Obviously I have a hard time accepting Cross' behavior making sense, be he a narcissistic psychopath or not, had he killed Nichols. Control, I think, is key.

As Christer has said, Andy Griffiths had it wrong. It was not police presence that made him stay and try his "bluff". It was not the idea that "there was now someone else (Paul) in the street". So, everyone agrees, it seems, that he COULD have walked on but he CHOSE to stay and "bluff it out". But, in doing that he voluntarily introduced a variable (Robert Paul) that he couldn't control. And then he tries to regain control by manipulating Paul. He says that he "won't touch her" because he doesn't want to reveal her wounds. Going off to find a PC. Then the Mizen Scam. After exerting extreme control over his victim: luring her Buck's Row, getting her into position so that he can attack her without her making a sound, ending her life, mutilating her corpse... he then cedes control, insisting the first person who comes along, a complete stranger, become an actor in the chain of events.