The Mizen scam

[Cogidubnus]

Why do I get the feeling the Rubicon's just been Lechmered?

Dave

[Lechmere]

I dont know.
Maybe for the same reason someone might ask 'why did the chicken lechmere the road' or wonder who might win the Times Lechmereword competition.

[Cogidubnus]

Surely the chicken would only half lechmere the road?

Dave

[Bridewell]

The Verb

Surely the chicken would only half lechmere the road?

Dave

Dave,

According to Paul's inquest testimony it was halfway alechmere the road, but according to his newspaper interview it was leaning alechmere a body.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Rubyretro]

The money for the grocer's shop is intriguing me (sorry -it's not really 'on topic', but it's details like this which fascinate me)).

Reguar employment for a reputable firm, ok...but carmen could still not have been paid a great deal, and a large family is very costly.

Starting your own grocer's business must have been costly too ( we're all capable of having a rough idea of what he would have needed to get started...I don't mean figure wise but logistically).

Lechmere/Cross must have got 'help' from somewhere is my opinion.

I will believe your research that his mother's family was poor....but her husbands' families ? Would she have got a Police pension after the death of Cross ?

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Surely the chicken would only half lechmere the road?

Love it, Dave !

[Lechmere]

Many Immigrant families have come here with nothing and opened corner shops - I don't think it was a mini version of Harrods.
He could have saved and lived frugally.

His mother ran a cat meat business which was a widespread cottage industry in working class districts. The family still ran a cat meat business in the 1930s so maybe he saved money from that sideline?
I doubt we will learn whether his mother gave him money but I very much doubt she would have had much to give him. We know nothing of Thomas Cross's pension rights as his police records are missing. He served during a period when they all disappeared! However it would have ended when she died. Her third husband died about 12 years before she did, so I doubt any useable inheritance would have been left.
I will have to check the dates She died and the rough date he opened his shop. In my mind he think he opened the shop before she died but I may be wrong.

[Rubyretro]

Forgive me Lechmere, because I'm sidetracking your thread somewhat. I am the sort of sad person to whom these details are endlessly interesting (although, I recognise, perfectly pointless).

Many Immigrant families have come here with nothing and opened corner shops

-

Maybe you have it here. How old were his children when he opened his shop ?

Obviously immigrant families don't have 'nothing' when they rent a shop, fit it out, stock it, and pay admin costs -they have large families who chip in money and they all work by turn, without wages at first, so that the shop is open maximum hours half the night, Sundays and holidays. They cost more, but they're always open, in proximity, keep a slate, and so are convenient.

Maybe Lechmere's kids chipped in money and worked there, if they were old enough ?

But I will shut up.

He could have saved and lived frugally

.

Starved his kids ?

or did he get 'special deals' on the local prostitutes (5 for the price of 1 ?).

Wait a bit, and I might still be able to 'bond' with Moonbeggar...

[Cogidubnus]

Actually that start-up money is an interesting byway...My own great great grandmother, when widowed, married a witness from her first marriage and they subsequently moved from Whitechapel to Wapping and opened a shop...But he was a bookie and presumably had access to readies (maybe cleaned up well on some meeting or other!). I can't see a carman finding it that easy to put money by...interesting.

All the best

Dave

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Actually that start-up money is an interesting byway

..

It is to me, Dave. Maybe it's something in that Brighton water ?

I don't think that it's got anything to do with the murders though...

...but then again, maybe it was from payments for being a Fenian/Anarchist double agent ?

[curious]

[QUOTE=Rubyretro;228889]

..

It is to me, Dave. Maybe it's something in that Brighton water ?

I don't think that it's got anything to do with the murders though...

...but then again, maybe it was from payments for being a Fenian/Anarchist double agent ?

Also interesting to me, but since he was from a very wealthy family on his father's side, I'm betting in that direction. A maiden aunt, some uncle or cousin who felt sorry for the poor side of the family and left a little.

Might even be traceable for those with access to wills and such like.

And, Ruby, I think you're right. It's unconnected with the murders -- most likely.

[Rubyretro]

Also interesting to me

,

Yes, Curious...it's a diverting little mystery all on it's own, isn't it ?
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that is intrigued by these sort of details in history...

[Rubyretro]

I just found out some interesting information about 19th century carmen,this evening.

There is a chunk of Charles Booth quoted on the subject, if you google 'Occupation of a Carman Baston Family Genealogy'.

It's all very interesting, but there are some bits which are interesting to look at in the particular case of Cross/Lechmere :

Wages: For such long hours as prevail, the pay is low. There is perhaps no man's employment, which yields so small a return per hour. To drive a cart demands but little skill, nor any exceptional intelligence, and there is nothing like the physical exhaustion, which puts a natural limit to hours of work in many trades. Moreover, the hours in which goods are moved by road extend almost necessarily early and late, preceding or following the work of others.

For one-horse vans men's wages vary from 18s (9Op) to 24s (£1.2O), and boys are often employed at lower rates. Some of the heaviest work is paid no more than 18s (90p). For two-horse vans the pay varies from 22s (£1.10) to 26s ( £1.3O) with a few at 28s (£1.40). For three or four horses no particular difference is made; 3Os (£1.50) per week is the maximum rate, and few employers pay as much. . At one time tips were almost a system, but are no longer usual, excepting perhaps with the men engaged in parcels delivery, who may still substantially augment their wages in this way. Drink is given more often than money, and what money is received most frequently goes to the public - house.

Well I for one am convinced that Lechmere didn't get the 'start up' money for his shop by saving. I will follow Lechmere in that it didn't come from the rich Lechmere branch, either.

If I had to invent a likely scenario, I would guess that it came from the Cat's Meat business. It is totally hypothetical, but I wonder if Mrs Lechmere didn't flog Cat's Meat around Doveton Street to make some extra pennies ? (a far enough distance from Mum-in-Law not to be in competition, but good enough to expand the business). I can see that if Mrs Lechmere had a head for commerce, this could branch out into other goods, and eventually become a shop (she would have been obliged at the time, to put everything in her husband's name).

Maybe she did so well (free child labour ! And free transport !) that they pooled their energy and time ?

It is an interesting bit about the carman's hours (starting and finishing before anyone else, but the actual job not being tiring).

On one hand, here is a reason why Lechmere might have gone to court in his work cothes and Paul didn't...Lechmere had more chance of fitting some work in because of the longer hours..

...On the other hand it could fit well with the Ripper's killing times, better than any other job.

The vans are usually out all day, and every day during the week, except when laid up for repairs, or unless trade be very slack. The work, however, is seldom strenuous, and always involves more or less waiting. These intervals, which may be between jobs or when waiting in turn for a load, are of uncertain duration, from a few minutes to one or two hours. One informant says that about three hours is the average time occupied in "standing', and that this includes meal times, for which no regular provision is made.

At times a man may 'put the nosebag on his horse' and go to sleep him self, but such occasions are said to be rare, and that on the whole the hours occupied are hours of work. The horses work the same length of time as the men. There is no change of team. This in itself would seem to be some guarantee that the number of hours of standing must be a considerable portion of the whole. Except with the railway companies and a few of the large contractors, the men have to clean and water their horses. Horse-keepers are employed to feed them.

It's interesting that Lechmere/Cross must have spent large chunks of time waiting around, and at late/early times no doubt ( how could he manage without a book or the radio ? I'd go literally MAD. I have been known to engross myself in the ingredients listed on floating sweet wrappers, when forced to wait in a car for even ten minutes. And I don't even eat sweets).

(Interesting that Hutch-the-Groom may have worked for the railway or a large contractor).

My favourite quote though is this

" Old bags are a common makeshift for an overcoat ".

So was Lechmere-Ripper simply planning his next winter's wardrobe with the murders ?
(a spot of tailoring ?).

[moonbegger]

Hello Retro-Letch-Man ,

"The snippet that Cross was over the body isn't unfounded - it is based on Paul's newspaper interview. It is quite legitinate to use that in support of the contention that Cross/Lechmere was over the body!"

I am struggling to find this Lloyds article ?

And yes , i would make a crap detective .. we finally agree on something

cheers

moonbegger .

[IchabodCrane]

Hi all,
The main problem I see with the Cross/Lechmere angle is that he wouldn't have to choose weekends/bank holidays if he was doing his killing conveniently on the way to work. I think JtR killed on/before his day off, and that he also needed some privacy to come home to with his trophies, I definitely don't see him killing on the way to work. Fascinating food for thought though, the whole Buck's Row scene and its various interpretations.
Cheers
IchabodCrane