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  • Greg:

    "No need for sarcasm master Fisherman"

    Okay then - no need as such, but much cause. Then again, you only delivered a small portion of that cause, so itīs only fair to apologize. And I do so.
    I was slightly annoyed by all the alternative explanations for Lechmereīs behaviour - some of them bordering on the ridiculous - that were coming my way as you posted. And you sort of provided the last drop with your apparent reluctance to accept a non-drunk killer.

    If you want to think that the killer must have been drunk, that is of course your prerogative. Once again sorry, therefore!

    Myself, I donīt think this must (or even would) have applied at all. Just as there would have been serialists that have used alcohol to fuel their behavior, others will not have drunk. And in Lechmereīs case, the more credible thing is that he went to work after killing Nichols, so he would arguably have been sober.

    "I think it unlikely the killer would be standing over the victim as another
    approached."

    That has been discussed in depth in this thread, so if you need some views on it, you know where to find it!

    "although I doubt the killer to be covered in blood I would expect
    some blood "

    The same thing goes for this. You will find that Lechmere (the poster, that is) has thrown forward a suggestion that the killer used the raised clothing as a shield, for example.

    " You would think Paul or Mizen would notice something or have the idea that perhaps this fellow was the perp. Neither did."

    Well, if the intimidation Paul felt was coupled to Lechmere, then he DID feel something. And at the end of the day, we donīt know if he suspected Lechmere - we only know that he did not say so.
    And Mizen? I think he is often hard done by. It was understandable to let the men pass, I think. Reasoning, on Mizenīs behalf, that they were perhaps killers who had sought out a PC...? Nah.

    "I'm not suggesting any of this is evidence obviously except perhaps the evidence of common sense."

    With heaps of respect, Greg, I have heard the weirdest things called "common sense" on these boards. More so than in any other aspect of my life, I can safely say. As you will know, I think that Lechmere in the killerīs role makes perfect sense, whereas I think dismissing him makes for no sense at all.

    "And although you name other serial killers that were family men or went long periods without evidence of crime, it's highly unlikely that the family carman ripper wouldn't eventually hang himself after 30 years (figuratively), these types nearly always do..."

    Nearly always? Then you will have a good deal of examples, yes? I am not in any way convinced that this is so, you see. People like the Columbine killers will of course more often than not take their lives, but that is in the direct aftermath of their deeds. People who have hung on - like Rader, like Ridgway and others - for a good many years makes for totally different animals.

    Fisherman
    unsarcastically

    Comment


    • Sally:

      "All this cordiality...

      Makes a change from arguing, eh?"

      Yep. Funny feeling, that.

      The best,
      Fisherman

      Comment


      • Cause of Death

        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
        Sally:

        "All this cordiality...

        Makes a change from arguing, eh?"

        Yep. Funny feeling, that.

        The best,
        Fisherman
        Hi Fisherman,

        Just as an aside, do you know Cross / Lechmere's cause of death? I ask only because there has been discussion (a few posts back) of whether or not the killer was / must have been drunk. If (for example) he had died of cirrhosis of the liver, it would support the hypothesis that he sometimes went to work under the influence. It's not a critical issue, obviously, but I wondered if you knew (or Lechmere - the poster).

        Regards, Bridewell.
        I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

        Comment


        • Just as an aside, do you know Cross / Lechmere's cause of death? I ask only because there has been discussion (a few posts back) of whether or not the killer was / must have been drunk. If (for example) he had died of cirrhosis of the liver, it would support the hypothesis that he sometimes went to work under the influence. It's not a critical issue, obviously, but I wondered if you knew (or Lechmere - the poster).

          Regards, Bridewell.
          I think that he died attempting a DIY kidney transplant upon himself, Bridewell.
          Not that it means anything.
          http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

          Comment


          • I have his death certificate but not with me at the moment - from memory it was essentially old age and wear and tear.

            Comment


            • Ruby - I believe that when his dead body was stripped they found a blood encrusted knife hidden in his nether garments, along with dried up lumps of what seemded to be jerky or perhaps biltong. It has always been a mystery as to what these items where and where they came from. I doubt this has any bearing on this case though.

              Comment


              • Probably totally innocent, Lechmere - they all carried knives back in them days. And he would have lived a deprived East end life, anxiously clinging on to any lump of meat he could lay his hands on. Nothing strange with that.

                The best,
                Fisherman

                Comment


                • Charles Allen Lechmere died of a cerebral haemorrhage ( which occurred two days before his death on 23rd December 1920) and also due to chronic bronchitis and arterio sclerosis.
                  His mother lived at 147 Cable Street at least from December 1889 at least (the 'Cable Street address').
                  One of his grand daughters got married on 24th December 1920. A daughter from that marriage is still alive and she knew that the death of her mothers grandfather the day before the wedding almost put a stop to the marriage. His life then is within the passed down memory of people alive now - but not there was not the slightest hint of his involvement in the Ripper case.

                  Comment


                  • [QUOTE=Rubyretro;226686]
                    OK what about the possibility that our man who found Polly , was maybe a friend , acquaintance or neighbour of Lechmere , who used his (Lechmere's less familiar ) identity as some kind of a mask to hide his own identity from the police [/QUOTE

                    Oh, for goodness sake..

                    This thread is now veering off into the surreal, like so many others...

                    We know that Cross/Lechmere was the same man, and I will have to agree with Fish (grudgingly), that this sort of conjecture is the stuff of Hollywood, or conspiracy theories.

                    It doesn't have to be so complicated ; We're not obliged to agree that Cross was guilty.

                    We can just accept the basic facts, and then debate, using conjecture which is rather 'deduction' based on reality.

                    It is true that we might arrive at different deductions, and even see that different deductions are possible and keep an open mind..

                    But what we surely shouldn't do is try and fabulate over the basic research and facts from which we are trying to deduce.

                    Evening all

                    So .. if conjecture is the only tool used to condemn an innocent man , surely we can use that same tool to show his possible innocence .

                    Plausibility is the key . There is just as much evidence that someone used Cross's ID in order to hide his own , as there is that Lechmere was the Whitechapel murderer .

                    And in actual fact it's a lot less complicated or Hollywood , and alot more everyday East End . Don't want to pop any one's "gullible bubble" but it happens a lot more than some would like to think .

                    "We know that Cross/Lechmere was the same man"

                    How do "we" know this ? Because (witness #1) Who found Polly , said he was, and gave CrossMere's details ?

                    As much as i like your confidence Rubyretro .. i have to ask the question again " could you please PROVE it ? " And remove all doubt .

                    cheers

                    moonbegger

                    Comment


                    • Moonbeggar
                      Take a read through some current threads. They are nearly all based on conjecture - for example the one based on the conjecture that Schwartz identified Kosminsky and was the Seaside Home witness and that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim.
                      You say that there is no proof that Cross was Lechmere. If he wasn't it means they were colluding. Why? It means that the imposter shared Lechmere's route to work, unless Lechmere didn't really work at Pickfords. It meand this Cross character took an enormous risk, and attended the inquest as a complete imposter, just to cover up an unspecified act.
                      For Lechmere to attend as Cross - and to use the name Cross - he had a ready made excuse. This imposter would have had no such excuse.
                      If you sit and think for a minute about the implications of someone pretending to be someone else in a murder investigation, when the someone they are pretending to be is the discoverer of the body and attends a police station and an inquest and the person they are pretending to be is (if not the murderer) someone who is impecably law abiding.
                      If he was not Lechemere, he got away on the 31st without giving his name to Mizen - we know that. So why appear at a poloice station and gave this false name. Why not just hide?
                      You may as well start trying to argue for the proof of existance. Prove to me that you really exist and that you are not a figment of my imagination.

                      Conjecture isn't the only tool.
                      With Cross/Lechmere we have the incrementation of a number of suspicious acts. Some may try and claim these aren't suspicious - but to be frank that is risible.
                      He left home by his own account with time to commit the murder of Polly Nichols.
                      He was found very close to the body by someone else.
                      He approached thi person in an odd manner.
                      The body was the only one where the abdominal wounds were not left on display.
                      His behaviour in touching the body was odd.
                      The fact that no one was alerted in the immediate vicinity of the body was odd.
                      It is the only instance where a 'Whitechapel Murder' victim's body was abandoned and was discovered again by somebody else.
                      When he did bump into a policeman he misled him by claiming another policeman was with the body (and so avoided giving his own details).
                      He then walked a longer than necessary route to work despite claiming to be late.
                      He still claimed to have got to work by 4 am.

                      So far virtually every single aspect of his tesimony has unravelled (or at least potentially unravels). But there is more.

                      He turned up at the inquest in his work clothes.
                      He appeared at a police station, almost certainly after Paul's newspaper story came out and gave a false name - Cross.
                      We can say with near certainty he was never visited by the police (as evidenced by them calling him Cross in their October report).
                      He can be linked to all the other murder scenes - most interestingly to Hanbury Street, but also to Berner Street and Pinchin Street.
                      He had a somewhat disfunctional background that provided possible fealings of powerlessness, and entitlement.
                      He moved to an address that meant his route to work traversed the killing ground just a few weeks before the murders started.

                      This adds up to quite a lot of grounds for suspicion The conjecture which adds these together to make a culprit is well within the realms of feasibility.
                      But I would re-iterate - every theory you will find here is stacked full of conjecture and not just the suspect theories.

                      Comment


                      • Hello Lechmere ,

                        I thank you .You make a very good case for ( witness #1 ) and Lechmere being one and the same .. i concede you are most likely right .. They could well be !

                        But curiously enough , your main swaying point for me just happens to be my main point of concern i had regarding Lechmere being the Killer in the first place .

                        "If he was not Lechemere, he got away on the 31st without giving his name to Mizen - we know that. So why appear at a police station and gave this false name. Why not just hide?"

                        Surely the same (rule of thumb ) applies in both scenario's ? .

                        cheers

                        moonbegger

                        Comment


                        • Moonbegger,

                          If he knew that Paul (a man who could readily identify him), had given his account to the papers, then it was going to look very bad indeed if he didn't come forward voluntarily.

                          There would have been a man hunt.

                          It's always better to take some control rather than just float along...Just imagine the sequence of events had he not come forward !
                          http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

                          Comment


                          • Rubyretro ,

                            Think you should re-read the last couple of posts

                            You may have the wrong end of the stick .

                            moonbegger.

                            Comment


                            • Moonbeggar
                              I think Rubyretro didn't misunderstand.
                              "If he was not Lechemere, he got away on the 31st without giving his name to Mizen - we know that. So why appear at a police station and gave this false name. Why not just hide?"
                              Why didn't Cross/Lechmere just hide afcter having blagged his way past Mizen?
                              Because Paul 'fingered' him in his newspaper interview that appeared on Sunday 2nd September as someone standing over the body. Paul did not name him but gave enough information that would have caused Cross/Lechmere concern that the police would come looking for him.
                              There was also the reference
                              If he kept his ghead down and waited to be brought in then he would be rigerously questioned and his wife made aware of what was going on.
                              He walked that route to work every day so the police could easily find him or they might conduct door to door enquiries until they found him. The police seem to have tracked Paul down some how and raided his house and interrogated him - because Paul did not come forward.
                              CRoss/Lechmere coming forward in that manner was a calculated risk but was one where he had control of events. Just as he had toi make a decison whether to fight or fly when he heard Paul approaching down Bucks Row. If he ran from Polly's body he would not control events - he might bump into a beat policeman around the next corner just as Paul reached the body and cried out 'Murder'. By turning and confronting Paul he was in control. By going to the police station to give a statement he was in control.

                              Comment


                              • Lechmere ,

                                "Because Paul 'fingered' him in his newspaper interview that appeared on Sunday 2nd September as someone standing over the body. Paul did not name him but gave enough information that would have caused Cross/Lechmere concern that the police would come looking for him"

                                Fingered Him ? Paul fingered a stranger standing over the body .

                                "Paul did not name him but gave enough information that would have caused Cross/Lechmere concern that the police would come looking for him"

                                Cross/Lechmere OR maybe even the person who discovered the body ! You see my main point all along , which you and Ruby did actually miss was they both would have had exactly the same concerns ! Be it crossMere or friend of CrossMere ( someone who needed to use LechMere's less familiar ID in order to mask his own )

                                "He walked that route to work every day so the police could easily find him or they might conduct door to door enquiries until they found him. The police seem to have tracked Paul down some how and raided his house and interrogated him - because Paul did not come forward"

                                Who is to say that the man who discovered Polly ( if it was not Crossmere himself ) would not have had to walk those same streets every morning ( as in fact many did ) and also would have needed to come forward in order to discount himself .. The man himself that is , the actual recognisable face that spoke to Paul , not necessarily his correct name .

                                You see Lechmere (poster) i actually agree with this bit ..

                                "If he was not Lechemere, he got away on the 31st without giving his name to Mizen - we know that. So why appear at a police station and gave this false name. Why not just hide?"

                                But the thing is , its kind of like a checkmate situation .. You really cant argue too strongly against one piece of evidence that condemns you .. with exactly the same piece of evidence with the hope it's gonna save you .

                                "CRoss/Lechmere coming forward in that manner was a calculated risk but was one where he had control of events. Just as he had toi make a decision whether to fight or fly when he heard Paul approaching down Bucks Row. If he ran from Polly's body he would not control events - he might bump into a beat policeman around the next corner just as Paul reached the body and cried out 'Murder'. By turning and confronting Paul he was in control. By going to the police station to give a statement he was in control"

                                Are These not also the actions of a completely innocent man discovering a body ?

                                And IF , he was the killer , he was far from in control .. as i mentioned a lot earlier in this thread " He really had no idea if someone was indeed watching him from a window directly opposite in Essex Wharf or to the side in new cottage " He had no idea if someone was ready to point a finger at him .. He had a lot more to risk in hanging about than he had in putting his head down and walking on his way to work . When we weigh up all the odds that could have gone against him when he chose to become involved in the whole discovery malarkey , as opposed to simply dodging past a policeman on his beat .. it really is quite phenomenal that he would choose to hang about .

                                cheers .

                                moonbegger

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