The Mizen scam

[Lechmere]

Lyn
Yes Cross stepped forward to attend a police station and then the inquest. In sharp contrast to Paul who of course tried to avoid coming forward but gave his real name.

Regarding Cross's inquest clothing:
But Paul was told that he wouldn't be able to go to work and he had to take on a replacement. It is only reasonable to assume that Cross knew the same isn't it?
It isn't just that Cross was in work clothes - he was wearing his carman's apron! That is over egging the pudding for Mr 'umble.
Cross was a member of the prosperous working class. Wheh he retired from being a carman he had enough resources to open a shop and left a tidy sum in his will. He would have had a Sunday best suit of some sort. I have very good reason to think he did in fact.

By the way I am fairly sure that Holland/Oram is the result of mishearing.

Paul says that he was wary of Cross as he knew that Bucks Row had a bad reputation for what we would call mugging. He tried to walk around Cross when Cross effectively blocked his path. If Cross had been a little boy or a woman would Paul have commented about the rough nature of Bucks Row and would he have walked into the road to avoid him? Of course not. The obvious sub text is that Paul felt intimidated by the manner of Cross's approach. That conclusion is inexcapable.

I took all your questions as being serious... but regarding your serious question, why was he spooked by Paul.
I don't think he was spooked by Paul - he spooked Paul (as Fisherman noted). I think he read that straight away - as soon as Paul tried to walk around him.
I think Cross was facing west attacking Polly's abdomen and facing the direction of greatest danger to him - the near by corner of the Board School in which direction the beat policeman could appear. I think he used Polly's garments as a shield to protect him from blood splash. He then turned and cut her throat. As he did he realised there was a figure moving up Bucks Row maybe 60 yards away, which he could discern as the light on the Brady Street corner gave more light in that direction than fell on him and Polly.
He wiped the blade quickly on her clothing. He left her dress where it fell - at the top of her hips rather than leaving her stomach wounds on display as was his usual practice.
He hid the knife about his person as he reversed away slowly from the body while trying to gain control of his adrenalin pumped body and regulate his breathing.
He then turned and approached Paul. In his still heightened state he could not find any words and still had an aggressive look about him, but he will have scrutinised Paul and been instantly releievd that he was not a policeman. Paul left the pavement to avoid Cross and Cross was forced to touch Paul to attract his attention. Cross then found the words to draw Paul's attention to the body which Paul would have stumbled across in another few seconds.
Note that - Paul was spooked by Cross before he noticed Polly's body.

It makes perfect sense.

Acting strangely?
Doing a touchy feely job on the corspe and getting Paul to join in - but without slapping her face and saying 'wake up love'.
Abandoning a body of a woman that he thinks may not be dead. He could have knocked up a neighbour or one of the many nightwatchmen in the street.
Telling a policman he was wanted by another policeman when he wasn't.
Giving a false name
Taking a longer route to work when he claims he was late.

We don't have scores of people who said they left for work at 3.30 (or even 3.20) and took 15 minutes to cover what would normally take 7 minutes.

Strange personal backgorund?
His father abandoned his family and had another family in Northamptonshire. His mother bigamously married two other step fathers one of whom was an authority figure (policeman) in his formative years who was almost as near to him in age as he was to his mother's (Thomas Cross was ten years younger than Charles's mother). Cross's mother clearly exerted a long term dominant role as Cross's second daughter was brought up permanently by his mother.
Cross was from a very rich family that effectively owned the village of Fownhope in Herefordshire. The decline of his branch of the family was dramatic. The family crest is based on the pelican vulning - that is stabbing itself with its beak and feeding its young with its own blood.
These are the sorts of things that twist the minds of a pre-existing sociopthic psychopath and provide perverse self justification for their behaviour.

The murders started soon after he moved into a house that meant his walk to work traversed the killing zone.

Just watching a chilling program about Robert Black - a white van driver who is probably Britain's most prolific child killer.
He killed while on his deliveries or on his way to work. His routes to work provide a blueprint for his crimes.

[Lechmere]

Dave
Thomas Cross died 17 years before. I believe he was based at Leman Street. It is exceptionally unlikely that anyone who served with Thomas Cross would have been around in 1888.
I also doubt Thomas Cross was fine!
And as I have said - the police tended to record aliases. The two extant police reports that mention Cross in passing make no mention of an alias or alternative name being recorded.

[Lechmere]

deletd - duplicate

[Cogidubnus]

Ah well...it was as I said, a passing thought...a will of the wisp...

Dave

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"I'm Tom Cross's son...yes that's right he retired a few years back..."

More like a few decades, Dave! And why would the police NOT want his true name. It makes no sense whatsoever to me, no matter who his stepfather had been. They did not record for their own pleasure, they recorded for exactitude and future usefulness.

"All supposition of course but it was the way my mind was working..."

All good and well, Dave - but why MUST we make things that hard instead of just accepting that he gave a name he did not go by...?

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

Sed contra . . .

Hello Lechmere. Thanks.

“But Paul was told that he wouldn't be able to go to work and he had to take on a replacement. It is only reasonable to assume that Cross knew the same isn't it?”

Well, it’s not unreasonable—as so many ASSUMPTIONS.

“It isn't just that Cross was in work clothes - he was wearing his carman's apron! That is over egging the pudding for Mr 'umble.”

I can’t even begin to see the idea here. Sorry if I’m dense.

Let’s see:

1. Cross was a carman.
2. He went to inquest.
3. He dressed as a carman.
4. Therefore, he was “Jack the Ripper.”

I think there must be a new rule of deduction involved.

“Cross was a member of the prosperous working class. When he retired from being a carman he had enough resources to open a shop and left a tidy sum in his will. He would have had a Sunday best suit of some sort. I have very good reason to think he did in fact.”

But he wasn’t a “prosperous working man” at inquest time, surely? Else, why worry about losing his situation?

“Paul says that he was wary of Cross as he knew that Bucks Row had a bad reputation for what we would call mugging. He tried to walk around Cross when Cross effectively blocked his path. If Cross had been a little boy or a woman would Paul have commented about the rough nature of Bucks Row and would he have walked into the road to avoid him? Of course not. The obvious sub text is that Paul felt intimidated by the manner of Cross's approach. That conclusion is inescapable.”

If he were afraid of muggers then ANY male adult could be intimidating. If Cross is so devilish clever—as you imagine—then why would he make such a faux pas?

“I took all your questions as being serious... but regarding your serious question, why was he spooked by Paul.”

Christer answered this one. Very well. But there is no mileage here.

“Acting strangely?
Doing a touchy feely job on the corpse and getting Paul to join in - but without slapping her face and saying 'wake up love'.”

I’ll admit I’m not sure HOW I’d react in such a case. Long time since I found a dead woman on the pavement.

“Abandoning a body of a woman that he thinks may not be dead. He could have knocked up a neighbour or one of the many nightwatchmen in the street.’

But if she’s drunk, let sleeping . . .

“Telling a policeman he was wanted by another policeman when he wasn't.”

We’ve been over this before. Nothing new here.

“Giving a false name.”

Hope I don’t sound brusque, but if you have another leisurely go at “Evans and Skinner’s Ultimate Companion” you’ll see just how many new SUSPECTS we suddenly have.

“Taking a longer route to work when he claims he was late.”

Did he ever say that it was not his usual route?

“We don't have scores of people who said they left for work at 3.30 (or even 3.20) and took 15 minutes to cover what would normally take 7 minutes."

I read one dissertation which indicated Polly was killed about 3.27. We can’t be sure, but 3.45 seems quite a bit late. Now if you are off by 5 minutes, then you have an extra 2-3 minutes to account for—no more.



“His father abandoned his family and had another family in Northamptonshire.”

So did many LVP males in the East End (although not in Northamptonshire—heh-heh.)

“His mother bigamously married two other step fathers one of whom was an authority figure (policeman) in his formative years who was almost as near to him in age as he was to his mother's (Thomas Cross was ten years younger than Charles's mother). Cross's mother clearly exerted a long term dominant role as Cross's second daughter was brought up permanently by his mother.”

Could you PLEASE drop the Freud? Else, you leave me no choice but to summon Gareth Williams. And who wants to contend with HIM? (heh-heh)

“Cross was from a very rich family that effectively owned the village of Fownhope in Herefordshire. The decline of his branch of the family was dramatic. The family crest is based on the pelican vulning - that is stabbing itself with its beak and feeding its young with its own blood.”

Very well. And my mother’s family seems to be a sept of Clan Robertson. We have our own tartan. Yet I teach adjunct. But so what? I have murdered no ladies, nor yet my wife. (Fantasies don’t count. Heh-heh.)

“These are the sorts of things that twist the minds of a pre-existing sociopathic psychopath and provide perverse self justification for their behaviour.”

Actually, these are the things of Sigmund Freud and FBI reports and the CSI programme.

“The murders started soon after he moved into a house that meant his walk to work traversed the killing zone.”

As also scores of others.

“Just watching a chilling program about Robert Black - a white van driver who is probably Britain's most prolific child killer.
He killed while on his deliveries or on his way to work. His routes to work provide a blueprint for his crimes.”

But surely the last 3 canonicals are problematic for such a schedule?

At any rate, I can think of worse suspects that your and Christer's.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

"At any rate, I can think of worse suspects that your and Christer's."

Well, that´s Lynn convinced, then - who´s next...?

Fisherman

[lynn cates]

parody

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Tell the truth. Do you really believe in Cross, or is this all a parody on Toppy to give others a taste of their own medicine? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Actually, these are the things of Sigmund Freud and FBI reports and the CSI programme.

Lynn -whilst I'd be the last person to take this sort of thing as gospel, even so in each case the assessments made and judgements given (or portrayed) are based on experience, case histories, and research.

It's always easy to sneer.

There is some basis in reality.

[lynn cates]

hermeneutics

Hello Ruby. Facts, case histories, etc. are well and good. But the INTERPRETATION of "What was that all about?" is what divides one social scientist from another--not to mention from the real world.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

They did not record for their own pleasure, they recorded for exactitude and future usefulness.

As I've previously been reminded by Tom, alas, at this stage of the case, all too often they most emphatically did not...otherwise Mizen would've recorded Paul and Cross's names, Thain wouldn't have needed reminding of his duties by the Coroner and Spratling wouldn't have had to be sent back by said Coroner to finish the house to house enquiries...

If they had recorded for exactitude there'd be far less for us to debate about on these boards!

Dave

[FrankO]

There is no realistic alternative but that Cross deliberately chose to call himself Cross - the only credible motive was to distance himself from the incident. Remember he gave his name to the police at a police station almost certainly on the Sunday evening.
One rather obvious reason for giving a false name was that he did the crime.

This last bit doesn’t make sense, Lechmere. Why give a false name when you do give your correct home address and name of the place you work? The police could check there at any given time and then they would find out that he hadn’t told them his official name. So, to me it certainly isn’t obvious that he did it because he was Nichols’ killer. Much more likely, as you say, it was to distance himself from the incident, didn't want people to know he was somehow involved.

Mizen doesn't come out of this - whatever way you look at it - as the most competent Rozer to ever pace the streets of London.

Judging from the available evidence, he indeed doesn’t. He even comes across as somewhat absent-minded. He doesn’t ask the men anything after he’s been told that there’s a dead or drunk woman lying flat on her back in Buck’s Row, doesn't take their names and doesn’t go there immediately, but knocks up another person first.

However it is quite easy to see how Cross/Lechmere could have said the line about him being wanted by another copper in Bucks Row, and for Paul not to be aware of this.

What’s also very easy to see is how, Mizen finding Neil already in place and on top of things, he could have gotten the idea that this PC was the one who’d actually found the body and had sent the 2 men in search of another PC, which turned out to be him. Perhaps, at that point, he was even certain that this must have been what happened. From there, it's also easy to see how it could have made him 'misremember' and state that Cross told him he was wanted by a policeman. We all know memory isn’t a recording machine, able to play tricks on us.

It seems from Mizen's testimony that Paul was very much second fiddle.

From Mizen’s testimony alone it may seem that way, yes, but not from those of Cross and Paul. Cross stated they both spoke to Mizen and that’s what Paul states as well.

All the best,
Frank

[Abby Normal]

Lyn
Yes Cross stepped forward to attend a police station and then the inquest. In sharp contrast to Paul who of course tried to avoid coming forward but gave his real name.

Regarding Cross's inquest clothing:
But Paul was told that he wouldn't be able to go to work and he had to take on a replacement. It is only reasonable to assume that Cross knew the same isn't it?
It isn't just that Cross was in work clothes - he was wearing his carman's apron! That is over egging the pudding for Mr 'umble.
Cross was a member of the prosperous working class. Wheh he retired from being a carman he had enough resources to open a shop and left a tidy sum in his will. He would have had a Sunday best suit of some sort. I have very good reason to think he did in fact.

By the way I am fairly sure that Holland/Oram is the result of mishearing.

Paul says that he was wary of Cross as he knew that Bucks Row had a bad reputation for what we would call mugging. He tried to walk around Cross when Cross effectively blocked his path. If Cross had been a little boy or a woman would Paul have commented about the rough nature of Bucks Row and would he have walked into the road to avoid him? Of course not. The obvious sub text is that Paul felt intimidated by the manner of Cross's approach. That conclusion is inexcapable.

I took all your questions as being serious... but regarding your serious question, why was he spooked by Paul.
I don't think he was spooked by Paul - he spooked Paul (as Fisherman noted). I think he read that straight away - as soon as Paul tried to walk around him.
I think Cross was facing west attacking Polly's abdomen and facing the direction of greatest danger to him - the near by corner of the Board School in which direction the beat policeman could appear. I think he used Polly's garments as a shield to protect him from blood splash. He then turned and cut her throat. As he did he realised there was a figure moving up Bucks Row maybe 60 yards away, which he could discern as the light on the Brady Street corner gave more light in that direction than fell on him and Polly.
He wiped the blade quickly on her clothing. He left her dress where it fell - at the top of her hips rather than leaving her stomach wounds on display as was his usual practice.
He hid the knife about his person as he reversed away slowly from the body while trying to gain control of his adrenalin pumped body and regulate his breathing.
He then turned and approached Paul. In his still heightened state he could not find any words and still had an aggressive look about him, but he will have scrutinised Paul and been instantly releievd that he was not a policeman. Paul left the pavement to avoid Cross and Cross was forced to touch Paul to attract his attention. Cross then found the words to draw Paul's attention to the body which Paul would have stumbled across in another few seconds.
Note that - Paul was spooked by Cross before he noticed Polly's body.

It makes perfect sense.

Acting strangely?
Doing a touchy feely job on the corspe and getting Paul to join in - but without slapping her face and saying 'wake up love'.
Abandoning a body of a woman that he thinks may not be dead. He could have knocked up a neighbour or one of the many nightwatchmen in the street.
Telling a policman he was wanted by another policeman when he wasn't.
Giving a false name
Taking a longer route to work when he claims he was late.

We don't have scores of people who said they left for work at 3.30 (or even 3.20) and took 15 minutes to cover what would normally take 7 minutes.

Strange personal backgorund?
His father abandoned his family and had another family in Northamptonshire. His mother bigamously married two other step fathers one of whom was an authority figure (policeman) in his formative years who was almost as near to him in age as he was to his mother's (Thomas Cross was ten years younger than Charles's mother). Cross's mother clearly exerted a long term dominant role as Cross's second daughter was brought up permanently by his mother.
Cross was from a very rich family that effectively owned the village of Fownhope in Herefordshire. The decline of his branch of the family was dramatic. The family crest is based on the pelican vulning - that is stabbing itself with its beak and feeding its young with its own blood.
These are the sorts of things that twist the minds of a pre-existing sociopthic psychopath and provide perverse self justification for their behaviour.

The murders started soon after he moved into a house that meant his walk to work traversed the killing zone.

Just watching a chilling program about Robert Black - a white van driver who is probably Britain's most prolific child killer.
He killed while on his deliveries or on his way to work. His routes to work provide a blueprint for his crimes.

Hi Lech
Nice summary.

Also, I thought you did a good job sticking the pins back in my grenades.

On the other hand I think you and Fish were too quick to blow off my idea that lech ws NOT on his way to work but used it as cover and to free up his time to do his thing and avoid the risk of gettng caught showing up at work with incrminating evidence. I think its an idea that only helps your cause and should be further checked up on.

[Lechmere]

Lyn
On Cross's inquest attire - it wasn't just that he went in work clothes because he didn't have a decent suit - he was actually wearing his apron as if he was waylaid en transit to work. Or as if he set off early to convince his wife that he was going to work. And the work attire reinforced his humble inconspicuousness. That is the implication of him chosing to wear his work clothes in stark contrast to every other inquest witnes where there is a description of their clothing. That is why his strange choice of dress is grounds for suspicion.

I don't think Cross was worried about losing his position in 1888. That is a line put forward by others. He hasd been a carman at Pickfords for 20 years by then, Pretty much from the day Broad Street Station opened. He must have been one of the most senior workers there.

Why did Crods make such a faux pas as to approach Paul aggressively? Because he would have been in a heightened state of agression having just sliced someone up. You would not expect someone - even a cool calculating character - to just switch a button and moderate their countenance. It is what we shoudl expect in a similar scenario.

Question
How many otherwise law abiding people in the Ripper (sorry to use that word) case are known to have given a false name immediately after finding a body.
Answer
One.
And I didn't have to refer to the Ultimate Companion to find the answer.

The timings are based on Cross saying he was late and left home at 3.30 (or 3.20) and Paul saying he was late and leaving at 3.45... and they end up 40 yards apart when they live 5 minutes apart.
It is not based on a modern day estimate that Polly died at 3.27 am (how precise!).

I am content to be in the same category as FBI profilers! The reason they look at these details is based on scrutinising past cases. Not a bad basis to go on.

Are you the long lost son of the chief of Clan Robertson? If not there is no comparison - everyone mildly Scottish can claim a tartan or two.
Cross's grandfather was listed as a 'Gentleman' and was named after Charles Fox the prominent Whig politician and he lived in an impressive mansion. Fownhope is littered to this day with Lechmere memorials.

I rather doubt that many other people walked roughly the same route early in the morning and had only just moved into the vicinity.

Of the last three canonicals - two - the double event - are on his night off - when he would have been visiting his dear mama (at least he would be of he did it - probably).
As for Kelly - at what time of the morning was she killed? Who actually can say with any sensible degree of precision.? In any event if she died later rather than earlier, who is to say that Cross didn't use his early morning deliveries as cover?

[Rubyretro]

Kelly's murder must have taken lots of time.