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  • Barnaby:

    "I'm more interested in the contemporary police's handling of Cross/Lechmere. As you have stated, we have a person of interest placed at the scene of the murder for an undetermined amount of time. Additonal murders then occur on this person's route to work. Finally, this person lied about his identity.
    It doesn't take modern forensics to conclude that this guy is suspicious. So the contemporary police were either completely incompetent or he provided them with information that exonerated himself."

    To be fair, the police seemingly did not know that he lied about his identity. I donīt think the police incompetence involved knowing about the nameswop and the potential coupling of the murder sites and his way to work. Nor would they have known about where his mother and daughter lived, so they would not have seen the potential coupling to the Stride case either.

    So itīs not that kind of gross incompetence we are looking at, at any rate. But we may well be looking at a failure to check out the identity of a man who was alone with a murder victim, and that per se is a very flagrant mistake. And, of course, if they HAD checked his name and found out about the nameswop, that would probably have set the ball in motion, and more research into Lechmere would arguably have provided them with the work route, his momīs address etcetera.
    So itīs a case of making one important slip-up, the way I think it went down.

    You second suggestion, that he perhaps gave them information that exonerated himself, yes, this may have happened. But if it did, the material has gone lost, and was never touched upon in any memoirs or such.
    My own contention is that the police thought that contacting a PC on the murder morning and reporting in to a police station on the following Sunday were things that clinched his innocence for them. Taken together with his twenty steady years of work at Pickfordīs and his status as a family man, they would have felt very safe that he didnīt tick any of the boxes they believed to be at hand.
    Where they would have missed out - if I am correct - is in relation to Robert Paul and the implications his arrival at the murder scene brought to the drama. One key to underrstanding this is given to us when Swanson in an October report writes that Nichols was found by two carmen on their way to work - that goes to show that the critical thinking needed was not in place visavi Lechmere.

    Great post anyhow, Barnaby - it does not take modern forensics to conclude that suspicion must attach to Lechmere, just like you say. It is a very obvious thing. And very, very controversial - for one reason or another.

    All the best,
    Fisherman
    Last edited by Fisherman; 08-15-2012, 07:44 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by harry View Post
      I believe that every poster on this thread has expressed their belief in the possibility that Cross could have been the killer of Nicholls,and some of us the more likely possibility that he was innocent.Those who believe in his guilt have the onus of producing information of an incriminating nature.I would welcome that,but I have yet to see it.No weapon,no bloodstains,no conne ction to the victim.No single piece of information that cannot have an innocent explanation.This is what faced the police at the time,and what is apparent now.A workman on his way to work,who w as unfortunate to stumble upon a body.This was his claim and there is nothing to rebut it.Sure there is the possibility that lies were told,but they are possibilities that have no substance unless they can be proven.All we have is the name Cross,but e ven there,one would have to stretch credibility to see anything sinister.
      Harry - I absolutely concur.

      I would add that we actually cannot know what the police at the time thought about Cross/Lechmere; but it stretches credulity to imagine that the possibility of his culpability in the Nichols murder would not have occurred to them.

      As you say, there is nothing whatever that must indicate guilt; and there is an innocent (and often simpler) explanation for every cry of 'Guilty'.

      Comment


      • Monty:

        "If you're wrong about my post, then the chances are you're Cross arguement is looking iffy."

        So THAT`S how it works! Then what does it say about YOUR arguments that you mistook Phil H for Jonathon H? Does that have an impact on your overall credibility? Are you defending Lechmere against the allegations made, thinking it is Tumblety you defend?

        Iīm joking, Monty. Sure hope you are too!

        Of course

        "Lechmere and Christer will defend their man at whatever cost, even the price of rational thinking."

        But who gets to define what is "rational" here? Is it irrational not to buy your assertion that Lechmere would have legged it if he was the killer? How does that work? Besides, itīs not the man weīre defending, itīs the theory. Others will defend the man at whatever cost - even the price of rational thinking.
        And the theory is?

        I have no preferred suspect nor theory. Im merely interested in a conclusion based on fact, not conjecture.

        Monty
        Monty

        https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

        Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

        http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

        Comment


        • Monty:

          "I have no preferred suspect nor theory. Im merely interested in a conclusion based on fact, not conjecture."

          The Lechmere solution has a lot of facts going for it. What it does not have - and it has this in common with every other proposed solution to the case - is proof. And, luckily, nobody has stated that it IS a proven thing. If it was, Lechmere would have been a killer and not a suspect.

          Then again, every time the word "fact" is brought into the discussion, it triggers oceans of bad blood.

          I can say that it is a fact that Lechmere stated a time (3.20 or 3.30) for the departure from his home that would - if he walked at normal walking pace and made no stops - have taken him past Browns Stable Yard somewhere around 3.26-3.37. I can also say that it is a fact that this seems to point at him needing an explanation for where he spent a number of minutes unaccounted for.

          But whenever I do so, it seems you will say that I mention the words "fact" and "seems" in the same sentence, as if that was proof of no fact being present.

          I do not like that kind of argumentation. But itīs what I constantly get, coupled with accusations of presenting conjecture as fact. I dislike it, but to little avail - it keeps cropping up just the same. And so I point this out, and we end up in some sort of meta-discussion about differing semantic takes on different expressions, leaving the core matter aside.

          Barnaby said it very well - it does not take any modern policing to realize that this person is a very suspicions character. And I would very much more like to discuss that then to mull over any semantic porridge.

          All the best,
          Fisherman

          Comment


          • Christer,

            You do not have conclusion based on complete fact.

            You have conclusion based on part fact part conjecture. This has already been admitted. Get with the program.

            And it keeps cropping up because that is exactly what is happening. You present an idea, give it your interpretation and state that it stands. You provide no alternative (so I, and others, have to) and claim this theory is the only logical conclusion.

            Semantic porridge convieniently overlooked and dismissed.

            There is none so blind as those who cannot see.

            Take your blinkers off.

            Monty
            Monty

            https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

            Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

            http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

            Comment


            • Monty
              Please accept my apology for being mistaken about your mistake.
              However - I have seen no evidence that anything either I or Fisherman have postulated is fundamentally incredible or pie in the sky obvious nonsense.
              I very much doubt any 'reasonable man' would claim it either.
              Nor has anything non factual been passed off as a fact.
              However it is human nature for an exponent of a theory to talk enthusiastically about it.
              I have to say that you have countered this theory - several times now already - by putting forward hasty counter claims based on faulty evidence and statements that are counter to the historical record.

              Ruby
              I know you actually agree about Toppy and your opposition to him is pure affectation.

              As for the more interesting issue of how long it Tom Mizen to bring the ambulance. He got it from Bethnal Green police station which was a good ten minutes walk away.
              Allow some time to explain what had happened, to locate it, and I believe other policemen came back with him.
              Then they had to wheel it back.
              All in all it must have taken in excess if half an hour.
              I would guess that he would have been back at Bucks Row by about 4.30 or possibly slightly before.

              Comment


              • That should be 'took Mizen' not 'Tom Mizen'

                Comment


                • On the subject of irrationality.
                  I would say it is irrational to state that a serial killer would NEVER kill on his way to work.
                  I would say it is irrational to state that a killer would NEVER stay to bluff it out in the circumstances Cross/Lechmere found himself in - if he was the killer.
                  I would say it is irrational to claim there is nothing suspicious or questionable in Lechmere giving the name Cross in the circumstances in which he did this.
                  I would say it is irrational not to concede that the downward placing of Polly's garments over her wounds lends itself to the idea that the killer was disturbed.
                  I would say that it is irrational not to concede that the timings as given by Cross/Lechmere allowed him time to commit the crime.
                  I would say it is irrational not to concede that if someone is late for work that they would probably take the quickest route.
                  I would say it is irrational not to concede that as Cross/Lechmere can be linked to the other murder sites that this is of significance.
                  I would say it is irrational not to concede that Cross/Lechmere moving to an address that meant his route to work traversed the murder scenes, just 7 or so weeks before they started, is of significance.
                  I would say it is irrational to claim that Mizen's statement that Cross/Lechmere had told him that he was wanted by a policeman in Bucks Row is of no significance in bring a pointer that Cross/Lechmere may have lied to a policeman.

                  Comment


                  • Phil,
                    There has been several theories that are worthy of being considered plausible.Each lacks the essential ingredient of proof ,that would set one above the rest.This,some suggest,is down to the irresponsible and unprofessional approach to the murders by the police force of the time.Perhaps,but my opimion is that not much in the way of evidence was ever there to work with.Evidence that is,that pointed exclusively,without reservation,to one person only.Unless it can be overturned by proven information to the contrary,the claim by Cross that he came upon the body of Nicholls while on his way to work,must stand.No one says it shouldn,t be tested,but to date little has been presented that casts doubt on it,s validity.As to abnormal occurances,I would say that a person standing for forty five minutes,outside a dwelling,at 2.30 in the morning,is more an abnormal occurance than a person following a recognised route to work to arrive there at or just before start time.
                    Regards.

                    Comment


                    • And wouldn't it be ironic if, after all these years, the killer had been staring us in the face?

                      Cross/Lechmere is almost the first person we meet in most of the basic Ripper books. Yet - why? - he has never been seriously considered as a suspect.

                      Closed minds, I suspect.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Phil H View Post
                        And wouldn't it be ironic if, after all these years, the killer had been staring us in the face?

                        Cross/Lechmere is almost the first person we meet in most of the basic Ripper books. Yet - why? - he has never been seriously considered as a suspect.

                        Closed minds, I suspect.
                        Phil - Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by 'closed minds'. If Crossmere was a strong suspect, he would have been seriously considered as a suspect - why ever not? There are a plethora of modern suspects, I cannot see why he should have been exempted from the list on any grounds of prejudice. And its not as if he hasn't been considered as a suspect before, is it?

                        It is because there is no evidence of guilt - and no, Team Lechmere, this doesn't mean guilty of being the Ripper (duh) -

                        I mean evidence that any of the actions taken by him which are being portrayed here as signs of his guilt were anything of the kind.

                        Comment


                        • I would add that we actually cannot know what the police at the time thought about Cross/Lechmere; but it stretches credulity to imagine that the possibility of his culpability in the Nichols murder would not have occurred to them.
                          Sally -this is a little bit hypocrytical.

                          When we were arguing, together, for the viability of Hutch as a suspect, there were many people (Fisherman & Lechmere amongst them, ironically) who maintained that 'the police would have checked him out' and must have been satisfied -but it's 'off record'/been lost etc. Our argument was that since this was a man who had come forward voluntarily, as a witness -and who was never a suspect- the police would have had their guard down
                          (not having the knowledge of serial killers that we have today). Especially if he came over as a very 'normal' upright person, who did not fit the image of the killer that they were looking for.

                          Lechmere/Cross, being a family man in a steady job, had even more reason not to be 'checked out' than Hutch, who was a casual labourer living in a lodging house.

                          The rest of the argument went (over Hutch) - and what 'checking' could they possibly do at the time ?

                          They obviously didn't interview his family, otherwise his family would have known about him being a witness.

                          I will remind you of a case that I used to quote over Hutch, but is even more pertinent to Lechmere/Cross -that of Vincent Tabak who murdered Joanna Yeates :

                          He had already been interviewed as a witness and dismissed (even allowed to leave the country over Christmas). Why ? Because he had a 'normal' life, lived with his attractive girlfriend, held down a steady job with a reputable firm (of architects), and was personable and plausible with no former convictions. There is no doubt at all that in 1888, Vincent Tabak would have gotten away with murder (despite being alone that night and living yards away from Jo and knowing that her boyfriend had gone away), and most probably bolstered by that 'success' have gone on to become a serial killer.

                          The Police meanwhile leapt on the Landlord -because he was a 'batchelor' and had a bouffant blue rinse and read poetry...he fit the image of the person that they were looking for..plus įa change etc

                          Tabak was arrested because he was anonymously denounced, and then advanced DNA techniques tied him to the crime (the first tests were inconclusive). Computer forensics ( absolutely disgustingly not made known to the jurers at the trial, for fear of prejudice) showed that his private sexual fantasy was watching women being strangled. Nobody could have known his
                          inner fantasies without the traces of his porn-watching being recovered from his hard disc -he had never shown the slightest sign to his girlfriend, nor his friends.

                          So if this can happen today -although we have so much more knowledge, and although Tabak was actually the man physically closest to the murder site (his flat was divided from Joanna's by a partition, having been one space), and if his girlfriend and her family initially stood by him disbelieving his guilt -then what hope would there have been of stopping him in 1888 ?

                          Absolutely zero is the answer.

                          So, Sally/other people -dont try and tell me that Lechmere/Cross's guilt (were he guilty) couldn't possibly have not occurred to the police.

                          It might have occurred to them if he'd been seen scarpering from the body, or had lain low after Paul had spoken to the Press -that I will grant you.

                          But as a willing witness ? No.
                          http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sally View Post
                            Phil - Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by 'closed minds'. If Crossmere was a strong suspect, he would have been seriously considered as a suspect - why ever not? There are a plethora of modern suspects, I cannot see why he should have been exempted from the list on any grounds of prejudice. And its not as if he hasn't been considered as a suspect before, is it?

                            It is because there is no evidence of guilt - and no, Team Lechmere, this doesn't mean guilty of being the Ripper (duh) -

                            I mean evidence that any of the actions taken by him which are being portrayed here as signs of his guilt were anything of the kind.
                            Again you are setting yourself up as sole arbitrator of what is and what isn't. Earlier on in this thread you stated that the thread is pointless, not "I think the thread is pointless". At least two other posters agreed with me that the thread was not pointless.

                            Again, we have

                            "I mean evidence that any of the actions taken by him which are being portrayed here as signs of his guilt were anything of the kind"

                            Certain posters believe that the opposite is the case, you really should word your posts appropriately. In short I believe that you are a know all.

                            Observer
                            Last edited by Observer; 08-15-2012, 12:13 PM.

                            Comment


                            • I mean evidence that any of the actions taken by him which are being portrayed here as signs of his guilt were anything of the kind.
                              [/QUOTE]

                              As I was just thinking about Vincent Tabak when I replied to your previous post,
                              Sally...here are some thoughts in reply to the quote above (off the top of my head)

                              -Immediately after the murder, Tabak drove to a supermarket to do a spot of shopping.

                              Perfectly innocent explanation..he was alone, and he wanted to pick up some beer and a ready meal (actually he wanted to be captured on cctv at the supermarket at the TOD).

                              -He called his girlfriend from the supermarket, for no particular reason, just to say 'Hi ! Missing you !'

                              Perfectly innocent ( this was so that that his girlfriend could say that he had called her from the supermarket,and the cctv film woud be examined without him having to tell the police directly about it).

                              -He googled 'dates of refuse collections in Clifton area'.

                              Perfectly innocent (he wanted to know when that incriminating pizza box would go to the tip).

                              I'm certain that if I spent time researching it, then I'd get a list. But my point is already made.
                              Last edited by Rubyretro; 08-15-2012, 12:25 PM.
                              http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

                              Comment


                              • Certain posters believe that the opposite is the case, you really should word your posts appropriately. In short I believe that you are a know all.

                                Observer
                                [/QUOTE]

                                Observer -
                                http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

                                Comment

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