The Mizen scam

[Lechmere]

And Caz
The reason he wasn't suspected at all was because the silliest billies were the police. And the reasons he should have been suspected by them had nothing to do with the name swap. That would have come to light had they been doing their job properly and had they looked at this case properly.

[Cogidubnus]

Chariots of Fire?

Paul was probably accurate on time as he knew he was late and alone had no motive to lie about time. Cross did - he did the deed. The police did as they were dossing around not doing their beats properly.

Ok Lechmere...so Paul leaves home at 3.45, three or four minutes to Bucks Row (not unreasonable for just under a quarter of a mile)* then four, or as I would contend, somewhat more, until Mizen is encountered...even accepting Paul's estimates you're already at 3.52/3.53 for the Mizen encounter...are you sure you're happy with this?

JUst how long a distance is it on foot from the crime-scene to Bakers Row/Old Montague Street? Another 0.2 or 0.3 of a mile? The walk alone seems to preclude Paul's 4 minute estimate...

All the best

Dave

* I'm judging this on my own pretty rapid walking pace every morning of 7 minutes for a distance measuring somewhere between 0.4 and 0.5 of a mile - which I've been forced to slow down slightly, (now 8 minutes), since my heart attack

[Fisherman]

Caz:

"enough already with the circular reasoning. "

There is no circular reasoning on my behalf - there is only you babbling about it. And THAT is becoming more circular by each post ...

Look, Caz - if I had been saying that the fact that he got away proves that he succeded in conning the police, then you would have had an excellent point. What I DO say, though, is that IF he was the killer, THEN he suceeded with his scam.

Now, please tell me that you are able to see the difference!

"Of course calling himself Cross was asking to be suspected, but only if everyone knew him as Lechmere and he only used Cross in the context of talking to the police about his discovery of the victim - his victim, if he was the killer."

If it was asking to be suspected, then clearly the police didn´t consider themselves asked. What you are doing now, is to try and lead on that the fact that he called himself Cross actually meant that he did so on an everyday basis. What you are NOT doing, however, is in any way explaining why a man who calls himself Cross on an everyday basis would SIGN himself "Lechmere" each and every time. And even if somebody would be daft enough to accept that he used one name formally and another one colloquially, you are STILL left with the problem of explaining why a formal testimony to the police ended up signed "Cross".

We can go over this a thousand times. Or we can choose not to. I suggest alternative two - that way, you can use your time to try and find parallel cases, or even a confirmation that he DID call himself Cross informally (whereas the ONLY indicator we have is a formal one ...?)

"The fact that he was apparently NOT suspected could indicate that 1) the police checked there was a Charles Allen Cross at Pickfords"

Why would they settle for checking at Pickfords only, Caz? IF they ran a check, why would they not use the officially listed information they had all the access in the world to? And in that information, we KNOW what he was listed as, right? Correct - Lechmere.

When the police run a check, I would suggest they don´t just ask the work mates, Caz. Unless you are of a different opinion...? Therefore, I would say that alternative 2, " they saw no need to check and he was very fortunate" is an infinitely better bid.

"The fact that he was apparently NOT suspected in no way, shape or form has anything to do with calling himself Cross rather than Lechmere."

Is there -perhaps - a word lacking here?

"The fact that he was apparently NOT suspected in no way, shape or form makes his decision to call himself Cross a smart one, if he was always known as Lechmere."

Not necessarily smart, Caz. It only makes it a functioning decision, no more than that. Smart ruses sometimes fail, stupid ones sometimes work. The outcome is not what solely passes judgement on the intellectual work behind the ruse.

But this is a deeply theoretical discussion by now, and is very hard to apply to the case as such - with any certainty.

"If you cross a busy main road with your eyes shut, you will be asking to be run over and killed. You will not suddenly turn from foolhardy to brainy if you happen to survive. You will simply be a brainless fool who got lucky on that occasion."

I´ll make the answer short - we are NOT discussing crossing roads. Totally unapliccable, thus.

"Oh yes it is.
It was assumed at the time to be an honest misunderstanding, and we simply don't know what exactly was said to Mizen as he apparently took down no details at the time."

We don´t know that Lechmere asked Paul to look at Nichols either - nobody took notes, did they? Nor do we know that the voice from behind the Hanbury street backyard fence said "No", that Marshall´s man said "You will say anything but your prayers" or that Nichols said "Look what a jolly bonnet I´ve got" - nobody took notes, Caz.
We have a PC witnessing under oath, describing a ruse that was tailormade to let Lechmere pass unsearched - and that is NOT an assumption from my side, once again.

"Those cards, Fishy - 'them' cards should be kept for spoken slang, if you must, but never written. It's like nails down a blackboard, which is a shame considering how good your use of English is generally."

Why thank you, Caz - and I don´t mind as long as them points I am making stand.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Dave:

" it seems a lot to pack into the four minutes..."

It was nevertheless Paul´s estimation. I have little problems with it, since there was not much of a stretch up to Mizen; 300 yards, perhaps?

"what time does it indicate he actually left home, compared to his 3.45 estimate?"

Pauls estimate was not that he left home at 3.45 - it was that he went down Buck´s Row at that time.

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

K in ADVOKATE.

Doesn't matter what his name is, not one jot.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Must you always lay out the text in such elaborate fashions, Monty...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Yes

Monty

[Fisherman]

Should have seen that coming ...!

And one more?

The best
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Pauls house to the bucks row murder scene is about 2 minutes I'd say.
The key thing about these timings us that if innocent, lechmere must have left home at 3.38.
He said either 3.30 or 3.20.
He also claims to have got to work at 4.00 which is also impossible.

[Cogidubnus]

" it seems a lot to pack into the four minutes..."

It was nevertheless Paul´s estimation. I have little problems with it, since there was not much of a stretch up to Mizen; 300 yards, perhaps? (A)

"what time does it indicate he actually left home, compared to his 3.45 estimate?"

Pauls estimate was not that he left home at 3.45 - it was that he went down Buck´s Row at that time.(B)

Hi Christer

(A) Somewhere between 0.2 and 0.3 of a mile I'd guess...let's say 0.25 and let's assume they walk a little faster even than me...a 3 minute walk...

(B) Times, 18th September, reporting on the Inquest says: "Robert Baul, a carman of 30 Foster Street Whitechapel, stated he went to work at Cobbett's Court, Spitalfields. He left home about a quarter to 4 on the Friday morning....."

Evening Standard, 18th September "Robert Paul, Forster street, Whitechapel, said - I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four"

Illustrated Police News, 22nd September "John Paul, of 30, Foster-street, Whitechapel, said he was a carman. On Friday, August 31st, he left home at about a quarter to four o'clock to go to his work in Spitalfields."

Daily News 18th September "Robert Paul said he lived at 30 Forster street, Whitechapel. On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four, and on passing up Buck's row he saw a man in the middle of the road..."

Pall Mall Gazette, 18th September " Robert Paul, a carman, said that he was passing along Buck's-row at a quarter to four on the morning in question"

You pays yer money, you takes yer choice...

All the best

Dave

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"You pays yer money, you takes yer choice..."

Not really. There is no discrepancy about leaving home at just BEFORE 3.45 and arriving in Buck´s Row at EXACTLY that time, since - just like Lechmere (the poster) says, Paul had but two minutes journey from Foster Street to Buck´s Row. And, as you may have noticed, Paul says, in his Lloyd´s Weekly interview, that "It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market."

So, Dave, he left home at around 3.43 - just before 3.45 as it were - and went down Buck´s Row at 3.45.

Incidentally, that "just before" is an eery reminder of that "almost up to the stomach", I think. Let´s not get lost this time, Dave!

On your first point, I don´t think that the touching of Nichols would necessarily have taken more than just a minute - or even shorter than so. We do not have a long list of things that went down at that stage, just a quick touching and an effort to pull down the dress, combined with a turned down suggestion to prop her up.

All the best,

Fisherman

[FrankO]

Hi all,

Could anybody tell me where Pickford’s was located exactly on Broad Street? And does anybody have a contemporary map of that area including Bishopsgate?

Thank you in advance,
Frank

[Simon Wood]

Hi FrankO,

"The Horse World of London", 1893—

"The Midland own more horses than any railway company in London. The stud of the North Western is curiously small; but then the North Western does nearly half its work through its agents. Of its 650 horses three hundred and more are under Broad Street Station, where they form not the least of the nightly attractions of that busy goods depot. The mention of the North Western agents—who are Messrs. Pickford & Co.—naturally leads us on to the carriers, generally so-called, who are still indispensable as railway feeders and distributors, and in what we may call the retail deliveries between the different parts of the metropolis."

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Frank, as Simon's post explained, one of the many Pickford depots was at Broad Street Station.

Roy

[Cogidubnus]

Incidentally, that "just before" is an eery reminder of that "almost up to the stomach", I think. Let´s not get lost this time, Dave!

I heard no echo there Christer...you must be a tad over-sensitive on the issue.

All the best

Dave