Give Charles Cross/Lechemere a place as a suspect

[Fisherman]

Garry Wroe:

" Although I personally don't subscribe to the view that the killer lived outside the area circumscribed by his crimes, Lechmere's Ripper candidacy cannot be undermined on the basis of the empirical data. Quite the contrary, in fact."

I humbly bow to your wisdom, Garry.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Garry Wroe:

"Coincidence, Fish, not evidence."

It is a piece of evidence that may or may not be a coincidence, Garry.

"And nor is Lechmere an ‘immensely strong suspect’. Not in an evidential sense, at any rate."

Ah, but you have not been given all the information I use to conclude this. Nor will you be so, until later.

"What I did do was seek clarification with regard to an assertion you made on this thread, a statement that appeared to my mind to fly in the face of arguments you have repeated consistently and robustly with reference to the Berner Street crime."

There too, ALL things should be weighed in - and I have many times stated that Stride COULD have been Jack´s. Nomally, though, there was no need at all for me to add to the score of supporters, but instead to resist the "Jack must not be questioned"-fraction.

I have championed Fleming as a good bid before - but I can´t see why that should somehow stop me from coming to my senses and realize that Lechmere is by far a much better bid. I dislike having people asking "How could you say A today, when you said B yesterday?" The answer is simple - because added knowledge calls for it. I used to believe in Santa Claus too.

And I still say it is childish not to accept these things.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Barnaby:

"Why are we applying different standards to Cross?"

Well, much as I would love to be able to give you an answer, this question has me well and truly beaten.

"Perhaps this section needs cleaned up. To people new to the case, appearing in this section sort of legitimizes their candidacy. If we simply are going to add and not purge the list, Cross belongs."

Yes, he does. And if I am not very much mistaken, that will become very apparent in days to come.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Steven Russell:

"I find this extremely difficult to believe. All we have is scant documentary evidence e.g. censuses and newspaper and inquest reports. The police "back then" had a major advantage over us in that they were present in the area at the actual time with access to all contemporary records.

We are only aware of a fraction of the information gathered at the time. We cannot go back in time and question people or knock on doors."

The police had infinitely better possibilities to check addresses back then than we have today, Steven, that is very true. But I think that what Lechmere is saying is that we know more about for example the address at which Lechmere´s mother and daughter lived, the reason NOT being that the police COULD not check it, but instead that they probably never DID do so. And that would have been because they did not see what we see - the connection between Lechmere and the murder sites.

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

'Probably'

The most common word used on suspect threads and often confused with 'evidence'.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Gee, Monty, you are such a support!

"Probably" is a term we all need to employ at times, and a useful one too. If two people spend time in a room together, and are found afterwards, one of them with a gash in the head and the other one with an axe in hand, then the latter "probably" whacked the former over the head, right?

We all work from different levels of knowledge. But most of us have picked up on the fact that the Ripper killings occured 124 years ago. That means that the evidence is not what one would hope for - much has gone missing, and very little can be checked. Therefore, if we want to promote a suspect, we will have a hard time finding conclusive evidence. We must link what we have together using the odd "probablies" and "perhapses", making better or worse use of them.

Which is why I´d like to ask you: are you of the opinion that I do so to to an extent that makes me stand out more than other posters who promote different suspects? I´d like to think that I do not, instead relying as much as I can on more solid material. Lechmere did not "probably" use another name when speaking to the coppers than the one he signed official documents with, he did not "probably" refuse to helt to prop a woman, arguably in need of help, up, he did not "probably" go to work along roads that took him close to the murder spots, he did not "probably" have his mother and daughter living nearby another murder site, the times the killings took place did not "probably" correspond with times when he could be expected to be close to the sites etcetera.

To me, this represents a form of thinking that is very much employed by rationally thinking police forces - check for connection points. I think that is a very useful approach to the Ripper riddle.

But I am probably wrong, of course.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious]

Hi, Fisherman,

Would you please jog my memory here -- prior to moving to Doveton, did Charles and his family live WITH his mother?

Thanks,

[Cogidubnus]

One thing on his name – law abiding people didn’t use aliases. We know some people did use aliases because both their alternative name came to light at the time and both were recorded.

Which makes my McCarthy/Carty ancestor deeply suspicious then....frankly I think almost anybody in the old East End might've given a false name to the busies if they thought they could get away with it...I'm afraid the police were loathed and distrusted by quite a large part of the populace as recently as the forties and fiftys...just how much is something you really can't appreciate unless you talk to the old folk!

[Cogidubnus]

Not convinced

Sorry Fisherman...I'm far from convinced on the scanty (almost non-existent) evidence so far...come up with something more convincing and you may change my mind.

All the best

Dave

[Lechmere]

Cogidubnus - if we look at the case then we see ost people gave the polie their real name although we know some who had aliases which were revealed at the time. Cross's was revealed by an examination of the census records in the early 2000s! Nearly 120 years later!
The police in 1888 simply had no chance of keeping tabs on the crowded and mobile population in the East End. It is not hubris to state this - it is a bald fact. They didn't have computers. That is how Cross was correctly identified. Nearly 120 years later. That is how his life can be recreated which ads potential links to the Nichols murder which tie in with what we know of his involvement at the time - and his potential involvement in the other murders.
Most of the comments on here about probablies and conjecture and fingering an innocent man etc etc etc apply to every single suspect ever mentioned - nearly always with far less basis with which to make a case.

Curious - prior to moving to Doveton Street in mid June 1888, Cross lived at James Street (now Burslem Street). This is about 400 yards due east of the Stride Berner Street site and about the same distance due north of where his mother lived on Cable Street. (I haven't measured these distances but they are not materially out).

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"Sorry Fisherman...I'm far from convinced on the scanty (almost non-existent) evidence so far...come up with something more convincing and you may change my mind."

I think I have, Dave, but as I´ve hinted at before, I am not going public with it just yet. I will do so, though, in the not too distant future.

I am not, however, as naïve as to believe that I will sway everybody who are into Ripperology! Such things don´t happen. Let me just say that I have spent 25+ years in the Rippers company without ever thinking that he could be named. Some time back, I thought that a decent case could be made for Fleming, and I still believe that he has a thing or two going for him. But when it comes to Lechmere, I don´t think that he is just an interesting bid for the Ripper. It goes beyond that, and if you hang in there, I hope to be able to show you why I think so in days to come.

Mind you, I think that what has already been presented on him is quite enough to make a very good case!

Speaking about worthy contenders, Dave - who do you favour yourself? And why ...?

The best,
Fisherman

[curious]

Curious - prior to moving to Doveton Street in mid June 1888, Cross lived at James Street (now Burslem Street). This is about 400 yards due east of the Stride Berner Street site and about the same distance due north of where his mother lived on Cable Street. (I haven't measured these distances but they are not materially out).

Thanks. I needed to know if his family had had its own home before. So the answer is "yes" Charles and family had been under their own roof and he had been responsible for his family before the move.

[Lechmere]

Tom
Without wishing to go dramatically off thread, when you say:
“Le Grand - a police suspect and truly suspicious figure following the Stride murder - left the Olde Crowne Tavern (a mile away from Berner Street) at some time between midnight and 12:30am on the night of Stride's murder”.
The Whitechapel Vigilance Society used to meet at the Crown and it shut at 12.30 and their patrols started from this location. Le Grand was employed by the WVS for a period around the time of the Stride murder, but do you have anything to substantiate a claim that Le Grand left the Crown that night between midnight and 12.30 am on that night, or that he was in the Crown at all on that night?

[Fisherman]

Curious:

"Would you please jog my memory here -- prior to moving to Doveton, did Charles and his family live WITH his mother?"

Have a look at post 4 of this thread, Curious; it pretty much covers all you have to know in this respect!

The best,
Fisherman

[curious]

Curious:

"Would you please jog my memory here -- prior to moving to Doveton, did Charles and his family live WITH his mother?"

Have a look at post 4 of this thread, Curious; it pretty much covers all you have to know in this respect!

The best,
Fisherman

Thanks, Fish!

And this is why Cross/Lechmere needs his own place in the suspect area! My mind can no longer retain everything I read and I am no longer certain which thread the necessary information is in!

Trying to keep in my head the dates of the baby's birth and death (which I believe is key IF C-L is JtR) is no longer possible either.

IF C-L was JtR, it was some sort of incredible stress that pushed him over the edge, then he stopped when the stress lessened (or that's how I see the possibility).