Give Charles Cross/Lechemere a place as a suspect

[Versa]

Ive had a terrible time trying to tie in all the threads that cover his candidacy as JTR on this forum.

Whether people believe he is a good suspect or not is verging on irrelevant at this point....

He needs to be here http://www.casebook.org/suspects/ and here http://forum.casebook.org/forumdisplay.php?f=3

If he doesnt have his place here on the forums then why the hell does Lewis Carroll or "The Royal Conspiracy" or numerous other candidates?

We are at risk of losing information thats been gathered in the huge thread here http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6496.

The information on Cross/Lechmere needs to be presented in a more coherent manner so that people can argue for or against him in the same way they do Hutch.

Its not about personal beliefs as to whether or not he IS JTR... Its about gather the evidence and being able to present it in such a way that people can read and join in the discussions without aspects being missed/glossed over or ignored.

[Cogidubnus]

vice versa

I'd agree with you Versa, so long as a suitable place is also made available for Jacob Levy, given all the really good work Tracey and Jimi have done in proving him at least a viable suspect!

All the best

Dave

[Supe]

Versa,

Michael Connor did just what you are asking for in a trio of articles for Ripperologist magazines starting several years ago. I edited all three and while I found Michael's theory interesting I did not find it particularly persuasive. Unless you have exciting new evidence I would think that judgment would remain in place.

Don.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Versa
It may be useful - this is what I posted back in 2008 - this was subsequently lost in the "great crash" but I believe partly recovered.
Here it is all gathered in one place
Chris


Charles Cross and Charles Lechmere were indeed one person. And he wasn't deliberately lying or using a false name. Cross was his stepfather's name which was adopted in one census and after he married and set up his own household he reverted to the name Lechmere in the census records. he may have used the name in a murder inquiry as his stepfather was actually a police officer.

Cross was born in 1849 in St Anns, Soho. He was the son of John Allen Lechmere and his mother's maiden name was Maria Louisa Roulson. His parents married in 1846 in Hereford. This is listed as follows:
1846 Quarter 2
Hereford
John Allen Lechmere married Maria Louisa Roulson
His family were from Herefordshire. He had one sister named Emily, three years older than him.
In the 1851 census, his father is absent but his mother is listed as married as follows:
1851:
Blue School Lane, Hereford
Head: Maria Lechmere (Married) aged 25 born Hereford - Straw bonnet maker
Children:
Emily aged 4 born St Peters, Hereford
Charles aged 1 born St Anns, London

In 1858, however, his mother had moved to Whitechapel and was remarried to Thomas Cross, a police constable.
1858 Quarter 1
Whitechapel
Maria Louisa Lechmere married Thomas Cross

The family is listed in 1861 as follows with Charles taking the name Cross:
1861:
13 Thomas Street, St George East
Head: Thomas Cross aged 36 born Burnton, Hereford - Police constable
Wife: Maria Louisa Cross aged 34 born Hereford
Children:
Emily Cross aged 14 born St Peters, Hereford
Charles Cross aged 11 born St Anns, London

The full listings for later census returns are as follows:
1871:
11 Mary Ann Street, St George in the East
Head: Charles A Lechmere aged 21 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 21 born St George East
1881:
20 James Street, St George Street
Head: Chas. Allen Lechmere aged 31 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 31 born East London
Children:
Elizabeth Emily aged 7
Thomas Allen aged 4
George William aged 2
James Alfred aged 1
All born in Mile End
1891:
22 Doveton Street, Mile End
Head: Charles A Lechmere aged 41 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 41 born Wapping
Children:
Elizabeth E aged 17 born Mile End - Purse maker
Thomas A aged 14 - Vanguard (Carman)
George W aged 12
James A aged 11
Louisa A aged 8
Charles A aged 7
Albert E aged 5
Above children born in St Georges
Harriet E aged 12 months born Mile End

Other records:
Death:
1920 Quarter 4
Charles A Lechmere aged 71
Poplar
Marriage:
1871 Quarter 3
St George East

Charles Allen Lechmere married Elizabeth Bostock
After I had done the above I found a full online pedigree for our Charles in the Lechmere line going right back to 1520!
Some surprises here! he included in his ancestors an Archbishop of York!
You can see this at

http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=rossbus&id=I24848

Just one more quick snippet:

Charles's wife Elizabeth survived him and lived until 1940.
She died on 12 September 1940 in Stratford and is buried in Bow Cemetery.


By 1871, Charles's mother, Maria Louisa Cross, was a widow as follows:
11 Mary Ann, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Cross (Widow) aged 45 born Whitfield, Hereford
Boarder:
George Blencowe aged 23 born Bethnal Green - Carman
A Thomas Cross died in St George in the East in 1869 but his age as given at the time of death is 34, which does not fit with that given in the 1861 census
Charles's mother remarried again in 1872 as follows:
1872 Quarter 3
Bethnal Green
Maria Louisa Cross
The others listed under the same reference are:
Joseph Forsdike
Robert Frogley
Elizabeth Nicholson
By looking forward to the 1881 census, we can see that Maria married Joseph Forsdike:
1881
23 Pinchin Street, St George in the East
Head: Joseph Forsdike aged 65 born Suffolk - Shoemaker
Wife: Maria Forsdike aged 55 born Herts (sic) - Dressmaker
Grand daughter:
Mary Lechmere aged 6 born St George East
Who this child is is not clear
Joseph Forsdike died as follows:
1889 Quarter 4
Joseph Forsdike
St George East
Aged 74
Maria Forsdike's death is listed as follows:
1901 Quarter 4
St George in the East
Maria Louisa Forsdike
Aged 77
Maria is listed in 1891 as follows:
18 St George Street, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 65 born Hereford - Horse flesh dealer (Cat)
Grandchild:
Mary Jane Lechmere aged 16 born St George East
and in 1901 as follows:
18 Old Gravel Lane, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 76 born Hereford - Corn chandler
Servant:
Jessie Furnell aged 14 born St George East

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

Cross was not and is not a suspect. Five people on earth, bored with the 'usual suspects', have decided he was the Ripper. That does not a suspect make.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rubyretro]

Hi all,

Cross was not and is not a suspect. Five people on earth, bored with the 'usual suspects', have decided he was the Ripper. That does not a suspect make.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I don't know if you include me in this sneery 'five people' ? If not, make it six...

Of course Cross is a suspect.

More people might think that he is a suspect if he was included in the suspect list, instead of them having to discover him by accident on a thread.....

[Jon Guy]

Cross was not and is not a suspect. Five people on earth, bored with the 'usual suspects', have decided he was the Ripper. That does not a suspect make.

Absolutely, Tom!!

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't know if you include me in this sneery 'five people' ? If not, make it six...

Of course Cross is a suspect.

More people might think that he is a suspect if he was included in the suspect list, instead of them having to discover him by accident on a thread.....

The suspect list has been drawn up and added to over the years by people who do not understand the difference between

1. Those persons who were spoken to in relation to the investigation as part of that ongoing investigation (being spoken to would not make them a suspect)

2. Persons coming under suspicion (Cross)

3. Likely suspects.

3. Prime Suspect.

Many on that long suspect list should not even be on the list in my opinion

[Jon Guy]

More people might think that he is a suspect if he was included in the suspect list, instead of them having to discover him by accident on a thread.....

I believe Casebook would require something suspicious about Cross before they`d do something like that.

[John Wheat]

I have to agree with Trevor Marriott on the point about suspects.

[caz]

We all laugh or take the piss when yet another famous artist is squeezed into the frame (no pun intended but gratefully received). But most of us are sensible enough not to take such theories - or theorists - seriously.

In a way, I think the Cross theory is almost as bad, because it smacks of a plausibility that it doesn't really deserve, with the result that relatively intelligent people can get taken in, and begin to see evidence where there is actually none at all.

In both examples a case has to be manufactured from scratch by putting the worst possible interpretations on an individual's known actions, family background and so on, and filling the numerous gaps with imagined nastiness, where all could be totally innocent.

In short, that's not a very nice pursuit, is it?

Love,

Caz
X

[miss marple]

Completely agree Caz,
Poor Cross seems to have been an ordinary working man going about his business when he had the bad luck to come across a ripper victim. This enables people to slander him left right and centre. He discovered a body which makes him a witness, but only the most perverse interpretation would cast him as a murderer.

Miss Marple

[curious]

Completely agree Caz,
Poor Cross seems to have been an ordinary working man going about his business when he had the bad luck to come across a ripper victim. This enables people to slander him left right and centre. He discovered a body which makes him a witness, but only the most perverse interpretation would cast him as a murderer.

Miss Marple

Hi, Miss Marple, Caz,

You see, I feel the same way about Joseph Barnett -- the slander, I mean, when he was also a victim. As I see things.

However, with Cross, there is so much more here -- at least to the way I see things.

JtR was never caught, possibly because people did not look below the surface. There seems enough stress in Cross-Lechmere's life, his frustration and anger needing an outlet actually makes sense to me.

curious

[Fisherman]

Miss Marple:

"only the most perverse interpretation would cast him as a murderer"

Well, thanks for that, miss Marple!

We canīt tie Kosminsky to any of the victims in any fashion. The same goes for Tumblety, Levy, Cutbush, Bury ... you name them.

Just how "perverse" is it to "slander" them and point a finger at them as the Ripper, if this is the way we are supposed to do things? How damning is it to suggest Feigenbaum, Kelly, Hyams? Can you tell me?

These are men that are fair game in the business, but also men who we cannot place on the murder streets in the manner we can put Lechmere there, and at the correct times! Nor did they have their mothers living at an address that provides us with useful explanation to the Stride murder, geographically and timewise. Nor did they succeed to have themselves recorded by the wrong name for a 120 years.

But no, those who propose Lechmere should be ashamed of their perversion - he must not be regarded as a possible killer.

Ripperology is sometimes very interesting.

The best,

your perverted

Fisherman

[Trevor Marriott]

"Square pegs in round holes"

Miss Marple:

We canīt tie Kosminsky to any of the victims in any fashion. The same goes for Tumblety, Levy, Cutbush, Bury ... you name them.

Just how "perverse" is it to "slander" them and point a finger at them as the Ripper, if this is the way we are supposed to do things? How damning is it to suggest Feigenbaum, Kelly, Hyams? Can you tell me?

Well at least Feigenbaum actually murdered a female by cutting her throat and was known to carry a long bladed knife. That has to elevate him to suspect status. What claim to fame have any of the others.

Its got to the stage of people trying to put square pegs in round holes. You only have to look at Kosminski,Levy,Ischensmidt, Cohen, Kamimsky all came about by reserachers trying to find a mad polish jew who lived in Whitechapel who was incarcerated.

Now people are doing the self same thing with the Kelly thread

Fisherman